[分享] Analysis on the Clinton appointment

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Jun
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[分享] Analysis on the Clinton appointment

Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 12:36

The appointment of Hillary Clinton to the next Secretary of State was officially announced today. Washington Post's Chris Cillizza has an interesting but somewhat superficial analysis on the rationale of both parties.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix ... id=topnews
President-elect Barack Obama's decision to name Hillary Rodham Clinton as his secretary of State likely will be viewed as one of the defining moments in the shaping of his administration.

At the heart of the new union between one-time rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination is a simple question: Why?

That is, why would Obama, a man who ran a campaign based on a new kind of politics that was an implicit rejection of the Clinton years, choose a potent symbol of those years as his chief diplomat?

And, why would Clinton, a woman who is used to being the boss, walk away from the Senate to serve as a cog in the vast Obama machine?

It's impossible to know the definitive answer to either of these two questions but here's our take, based on close observation of both politicians over the last two years.

For Obama, picking Clinton accomplishes practical and symbolic goals.

On the practical level, it's hard to argue with her credentials or her readiness to represent the United States in the world during an extremely challenging time, as evidenced by the Mumbai terrorist attacks over the long Thanksgiving weekend.

Clinton was among a trio of high profile elected officials considered for the job that included New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry.

While both Richardson and Kerry were dedicated Obama supporters, neither carried the star power of Clinton -- a known (and respected) commodity throughout the world.

Symbolically, picking Clinton sends a series of fascinating messages.

It reinforces the "Team of Rivals" meme that seems to have transformed into conventional wisdom in the month (or so) since Obama was elected the 44th president of the United States.

Put simply, picking Clinton shows Obama's bigness -- that his pledge to bring in the best and brightest regardless of their past political entanglements is more than just lip service.

And, despite the hunky-dory report of relations between the two one-time opponents, bringing Clinton into the Obama cabinet also serves as an example of the old adage that you keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

The Clintons -- since Bill and Hillary are a package deal -- were certain to be a base of power within the Democratic party no matter whether they were part of of the Obama Administration or not. By inviting them in through the front door, Obama is ensuring that he will have some control -- how much remains to be seen -- over the country's preeminent political power couple.

Could that move backfire? Sure. Giving Hillary Clinton such a prominent place on the world stage entails risk. But, Obama and his advisers clearly believe that they are better served with Hillary and Bill Clinton under the tent rather than throwing stones from the outside.

As for Clinton, the "why" of her decision to vacate the Senate to become secretary of State is equally fascinating.

In conversations with a number of people close to Clinton, it's clear to us that she saw this decision as a real crossroads in her political life.

Remember that she only emerged as an elected official in her own right eight years ago and that the entire focus of her time in public life over the past two (four? six?) years had been on running for president.

With that dream deferred -- certainly for a while, probably forever -- Clinton had to resolve for herself how she wanted to spend the next five to ten years of her life.

On the one hand was the job as top diplomat where she would be a high-profile and influential force in the world community at a time when America is seeking to redefine its role and reposition itself.

On the other was her seat in the Senate where her symbolic power as a national spokeswoman for the Democratic party occasionally conflicted with her decidedly junior status in the chamber.

Clinton was not likely to play a major role in any of Obama's domestic policy initiatives -- healthcare, energy, etc. -- and, despite an alleged promise to give her a seat on the powerful Appropriations Committee, it was relatively clear that Clinton would be taking a back-seat role on the issues nearest and dearest to her.

The Clintons -- more so than the average political family -- are abundantly aware of their own legacies and faced with the choice of playing a subordinate but influential and high profile role in the Obama Administration or toiling in (relative) obscurity in the Senate, it's clear that Hillary Clinton believed she could have more impact in the former role.

That Obama and Clinton could stand together on a stage -- one as president, the other as his secretary of State -- speaks to the unpredictability and soap-operatic nature of politics.

Make no mistake: this is the beginning not the end of a fascinating storyline in American politics. And we will be there every step of the way.
One thing he did not mention is the perceived (and possibly real) hawkish stance on international relationships of the Clintons. This is particularly important in stabilizing two very challenging and shakey regions: the Israeli-Palestinian issue and Latin America (which is again drifting away from US and toward Russia). The Clintons have well established credibility and trust and good will in both regions.

Again, this is a move that can be viewed as the Prez-elect's strategy to pursue centrist (some would say conservative) policies without himself appearing too conservative to his liberal base.
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-12-01 13:03

I am really happy Clinton got this role. This is about the most high profile position she can get, and also the position she will get most of the credit of any accomplishment.
On Obama's side, he shows great confidence in himself -- as always -- by not afraid of giving other people credit. And I agree with Jun that potentially he could unload responsiblity (and blames if anything goes wrong ) on to her. If she's done anything wrong, people would blame Bill not her boss.

It is so funny. The press used to compare Obama with JFK and Bill Clinton in early stage of the election, but now, gee, Obama is always compared to Lincoln (team of rivals) and Roosevelt (new new deal). Even die-hard fan like me starts to feel a bit funny ... he has not even done anything yet ... can you imagine what the press will say when he actually accompolishes sth? Comparing him to some kind of Saint? Whoops, New Yorker already did.
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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 13:16

It is a gamble for everyone involved. But then under the current circumstance what isn't a gamble? Every decision is a gamble. Continuing with the way things are will be the riskiest and most unfavorable gamble of all options.
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-12-01 15:26

这会SAINT来也没有用, 除非是GOD.

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Post by Knowing » 2008-12-01 15:58

他要真能力挽狂澜大家肯定得把他当GOD看。我最近最爱猖獗的说的笑话是:OBAMA 会是美国历史上最伟大的总统,事实上他将这样出色,8年后美国要修宪改成终生君主制,在他之后再也不会有总统了。 :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Post by gigi » 2008-12-01 16:18

СKÎÒÖ§³ÖÄã¼Ò˧¸çµ±GOD :love007:

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 16:38

我也不指望谁是上帝下凡,只要别弄出个第三次世界大战就烧香拜佛了。现在的形势跟193X年一样一样的。酝酿八年,那些人盼望的启示录Apocalypse的火候也给创造得差不多了。

I seriously believe foreign policy and diplomacy will be of vital importance in the next 4 years. 浪尖风口。
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Post by gigi » 2008-12-01 16:52

Come on, JUN, don't be so pessimistic.ÎÒÒ²ÊÇÏ£À­ÀïÒ»Åɵģ¬ÏÖÔÚ¿´Ëýµ±Á˹úÎñÇäҲͦ¸ßÐË¡£Äã¾Í±ðÌæÏ£À­ÀïºÍ˧¸ç²ÙÐÄÁË¡£

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 17:26

没办法,我就是个悲观加操心的命。 :gros_yeux_tristes:
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Post by gigi » 2008-12-01 17:32

How about taking some serotonin reuptake inhibitors? :xmas018:

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 17:46

I'm waiting for oxytocin nasal spray! :party005:
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Post by camellia » 2008-12-01 18:32

希特勒的很多经济政策确实使德国的摆脱了经济危机,和罗斯福一样,他也大力发展公共建设。“希特勒政府头两年(1933-1934年)用于兴办公共工程的开支共约50亿马克。其中最大的是建筑公路,主要是高速公路,16.1亿马克,其次是修建公共建筑物与住宅(后来不少成为兵营)约7亿马克,开垦荒地与改良土壤等约7亿马克,整治河道、开凿运河和架设桥梁等3.5 亿马克,修复和更新铁路设备约5亿马克;对参加公共工程的私人发放补助金和减免税金约6-7亿马克”

帅哥上台的一些政策会和希特勒一样,因为已经被证实是有效的,不能一概否定。增加税收,继续国有化,扩大出口,发展公共建设,开发新型能源。和德国不同的是,美国已经是霸主,不需要像纳粹德国一样解决战败的影响。再说帅哥集结了那么多能力强个性也强的人,他想独裁别人还不干呢。

所以Jun别害怕,相似的环境并不说明会有相似的结果。

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Post by DeBeers » 2008-12-01 21:33

我今天下班在地铁上看到一位女士背着个帆布包,印着小K帅哥的头像,包上还别个印着他头像的像章,就像当年我家里那些毛主席像章一样的...... :speechless002:
也许资本主义之后真的是社会主义也说不定 :whistling:
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Post by buzz » 2008-12-01 22:02

几年前在哈佛商业评论上有一篇文章, 探讨的是charismatic leader。他分析了过去几十年许多CEOs的成就, 他的结论很有意思,在商业里,综合来讲,charismatic leader并不比低调朴实的CEO更有作为。 日本人的公司像honda就是一个例子。 我觉得很有道理。一个完善的制度远比一个英雄要来得可靠。历史上大规模狂热的群体运动总是带着点盲目。 这点让人很不安。

洋人的造神运动不比国人差。 现在人民群众把OBAMA捧得那么高,这也是double-edged sword. 捧得越高, 摔得也越狠。就像suzanne vega在When Heroes Go Down里唱的那样When heroes go down,They land in flame,So don't expect any slow and careful,Settling of blame...When heroes go down,Man or woman revealed You can't expect any kind of mercy On the battlefield

will you show any kind of mercy if obama goes down????

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Post by Knowing » 2008-12-01 22:38

经过刚过去的八年,谁还认为美国有完善的政治制度,举个手看看?

有魅力的领袖不比低调朴实的ceo 有作为,怎么就推出完善的制度比英雄可靠?低调朴实的ceo 跟完善的制度有什么因果关系?把charm 跟实干对立起来,相当于说唱歌好听的人跳舞一定不行,逻辑上是说不通的。


我都懒的说什么,反正obama 已经上台了,是驴子是马拉出来遛遛,他干的好,大家都受益。他干的要是不好,大家当然有批评的权利。随重大权利而来的是重大责任,他没资格,也绝不会,要求媒体把现在说好话的劲头省下来留着为他将来捅的篓子辩护。连这个责任都不肯担的人不配从政。
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Post by buzz » 2008-12-01 23:01

是非功过, 四年后再评论, 现在说太不靠谱了。

恩, 我只是引用了别人对历史上商业领导人的观察,就事论事,没必要这么暴跳如雷吧。 :mrgreen:

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 23:04

第一,澄清下我上面没讲清楚的话,不是要暗示下任总统先生有变成希特勒的倾向,而是经济和世界形势的不稳定使得战争的可能性提升。哪有完全重复的历史呢?因为经济衰退而民族自豪感受到极度打击需要靠攻击他人而撑起来的实力强国,其实现在就有一个,是俄国。

第二,谁也没有神化过希特勒,别动不动就把中国经历套别人头上。德国的事儿跟个人崇拜还是有很大区别的,更别说现在的美国状况了。
就事论事,没必要这么暴跳如雷吧。
buzz 同学,不是我针对你个人,我也就事论事一下,你想说什么论点我没看懂。有实打实的 fact 提出来咱们讨论不行么?泛泛然地扯到历史上的 charismatic CEO 跟现实某个特定的国家领导人有什么直接联系么?如果有直接联系,可不可以拿说过的话,做过的决定,干过的事,来直接对比下?
Last edited by Jun on 2008-12-01 23:12, edited 1 time in total.
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buzz
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Post by buzz » 2008-12-01 23:11

谁也没有神化过希特勒,别动不动就把中国经历套别人头上。德国的事儿跟个人崇拜还是有很大区别的,更别说现在的美国状况了。
希特勒没有被神化, 德国没有个人崇拜? oh, please...

当然德国和美国的现状完全是两码事。 我反对的是任何形式的偶像崇拜。

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 23:20

如果真要玩就事论事的游戏,仅仅是 "oh, please" 是不够的。请举出事实驳倒我的谬论。

(例如,我的谬论是建立在这上面的:德国民众对希特勒的狂热支持建立在对经济和民生的恐慌上面,他们支持的很大一部分是希特勒的政策而不是他的魅力或者因为他长得象个偶像,他们是真心支持他的“转嫁责任到犹太人身上”的政策,“攻击报复欺负我们的英法联军”的政策,“你们都是优等人种”的理论,“德国有能力也应该一统欧洲,这样大家都过上好日子”的理想,如此等等。)
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Post by buzz » 2008-12-01 23:34

如果以下事实还不能说明希特勒在搞个人崇拜, 那我也无话可说。

1. 一九三四年: 希特勒让全体国防军的官兵宣誓效忠

“我在上帝面前作此神圣的宣誓,我将无条件地服从德意志国家和人民的元首、武装部队最高统帅阿道夫・希特勒作为一名勇敢的军人,我愿在任何时候为履行誓言而不惜牺牲生命。

2. 一九三四年九月七日在集会上

鲁道夫・赫斯宣布道:“纳粹党是希特勒,希特勒则是德国,德国就是希特勒!万岁――希特勒! 万岁――胜利!万岁――胜利――希特勒!##”狂热的人群一齐跟着振臂高呼,他们被这样一种颇具诱惑力的欢庆气氛所陶醉,所激动。

这些被拍入《意志的凯旋》,作为宣传片在德国国内到处播映。。。

3。 这些没完没了的群众游行和宣誓效忠的盛大集会是戈培尔为希特勒精心设计的元首个人崇拜的一个组成部分,希特勒本人对此也感到极为赏心悦目。元首个人崇拜很快便波及了整个国家,它的一个最为明显的标志是希特勒式的致意,大街上的人们以“万岁――希特勒!”来相互问候,商人们通函亦以“万岁――希特勒!”来作为落款,孩子们在校学习颂扬希特勒勒的诗文并为元首祈祷。党的元首现在成为“德意志人民的元首”或者被简洁地称之为“我们的元首”。对于希特勒的正式称呼并不是“国家总理先生”,而要称“我的元首”。

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Post by Jun » 2008-12-01 23:48

谢谢,你举的例子很好。我收回前面关于德国的说法。

在现在的Obama 支持者里面,一点也没有这些你举的例子中的迹象。

这是一个值得讨论的话题:什么是偶像崇拜?什么是危险的偶像崇拜?在T-shirt 上面印人头像算不算?那么穿印了Che Guevara 的头像的人算不算偶像崇拜,并且有明天就去打游击搞革命的危险?

支持 Obama 的人,是正在搞危险的偶像崇拜吗?The New Yorker 有没有煽动读者把 Obama 当成是神?新闻分析(或者我)跑来说:目前 Obama 选的内阁成员都是很好很靠谱的选择,是实事求是呢还是偶像崇拜?

从“应该当选”到“用人有效率”,对于 Obama 迄今为止的做法和方针表示支持的那些做法是偶像崇拜?那些又是危险的偶像崇拜?哪些又是让人反对的偶像崇拜?这些还需要具体例子说明。小K同学的言论属于“任何偶像崇拜”的举动么?投票选他的那些人呢?这些是危险的么?这些人里面应该反对谁?

哪些言论和立场是偶像崇拜的结果,哪些是理智判断的结果,哪些是纯粹审美观点,谁来给它们定标准归类?谁来指定“你就是一个Obama的偶像崇拜者”?
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Post by 陈周侯 » 2008-12-02 0:54

那些拿Obama比Lincoln的人最阴险,这是不是在暗示虽然前景是光明的,但过程会大大的曲折?接下来四年总统是不是会在各个战场上屡屡损兵折将,让恐怖分子一再剑指首都,群众怨声载道(扭腰人民尤其起劲),几乎输掉连任选举……?纯粹是欺负没好好读过历史的同学。

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Post by buzz » 2008-12-02 4:49

特雷莎修女在印度贫民窟操心了一辈子,活人无数,临老才成了saint. 看来能赢一场嘴仗,当上美国这一世界大国的总统果然是件功德无量的大善事阿, 抵得上别人几十年风雨无阻的辛劳。。。 :spamafote:

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Post by buzz » 2008-12-02 5:26

oh dear, JUN同学, 您把我拖入了一潭混水。 :mrgreen:
什么是偶像崇拜?什么是危险的偶像崇拜?在T-shirt 上面印人头像算不算?那么穿印了Che Guevara 的头像的人算不算偶像崇拜,并且有明天就去打游击搞革命的危险?
个人崇拜应该是争对活人。 there should be interaction dynamics between the person who has been followed and people who have worshiped. 所以,穿印了Che头像的人不能算是个人崇拜, 先把这个搁置一旁。


首先:让我澄清一下我对obama先生的印象:
1. mr. obama is an intelligent, charming, progressive, eloquent and skillful politician
2. so far, mr. obama has done nothing wrong. his team indeed is quite impressive. but he hasn't accomplished anything either.

a politician should be judged based on his accomplishment, not on his vision, dream or words. all those anointments sound like hypes to me. i just don't like hypes. :spamafote:

其次:让我澄清一下我对obama vs. obama支持者的观点:
1. given mr. obama's limited experience, he did win his supporters through his personality and his vision.
2. politics is the business about people. politicians have personalities: good or bad, charming or boring. for a very likable politician such as obama, it is inevitable to have personality cult. it is a fact of life whether one likes it or not. And in a progressive society, one shouldn't regulate personal behavior. therefore, it is perfectly fine with me that people, like xiao K, become the fans of obama. i have no objection to it.

其三:我得说明一下我个人的立场:

most of your questions have been centered around "偶像崇拜". i have to admit that my previous argument of "我反对的是任何形式的偶像崇拜" is a vague statement. to be more specific, i am against potential abuse of personality cult.

1. On his fans:

the fundamental assumption of democracy is that human beings are flawed. therefore, power must be tamed, limited, and put into cage through balances and checks. my overall impression on mr. obama is very very very positive. but a politician is a politician is a politician. he is fundamentally flawed as the rest of us regardless of how charming he might be. i find those cult following, those views which weigh the faith towards a fellow human being over the principle of democracy are quite disturbing. obama dynasty forever? what a nightmare.

2. On Mr. Obama

while personality cult around mr. obama is inevitable, how can you make sure mr. obama won't exploit it when he gets into dirty political mess? not long ago, bush administration exploited human emotion of fear to achieve their goal. :spamafote: [well, this is quite weak argument. the way politics works is pretty dirty anyway.]

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-12-02 7:33

Now that the election is over, I don't feel strongly enough to have an argument. However, I have suggested readings:

1. For those who still thinks running for president successfully is not an accomplishment, suggested reading is an recent New Yorker article "Battle Plan".


2. "Saint" is a joke inreference to The New Yorker article "Joshua Generation". But the article is about why Obama is not a patriarch and not a prophet but the prophesied.

3. "Obama Dynasty" is a joke in reference to Mayor Bloomberg seeking the third term as New York mayor, which I am not very comfortable with.

4
那些拿Obama比Lincoln的人最阴险,这是不是在暗示虽然前景是光明的,但过程会大大的曲折?接下来四年总统是不是会在各个战场上屡屡损兵折将,让恐怖分子一再剑指首都,群众怨声载道(扭腰人民尤其起劲),几乎输掉连任选举……?纯粹是欺负没好好读过历史的同学。
拿来比内战前的林肯算什么。比罗斯福的才阴险。内战跟二战能比么?我对经济的看法比大多数人都悲观好几倍。反正现在选举也完了,老子实话实说,总统能做的事情有限。这场经济危机最坏的时候还没到呢。两年内要能出现好转的迹象就不错了。别说经济危机,连金融危机都尚未控制住。现在这些too big too fail 的大银行,没准会有政府都觉的too big too save 救不下来的一天。会不会象三十年代大萧条导致二战,谁都说不准。
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Jun
Posts: 27816
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Post by Jun » 2008-12-02 8:12

Obama 个人魅力很强么?比Hillary Clinton强,这咱没话说。比John McCain强 ... 吗?也许,但是很难判断支持两边的人是支持他们不同的政治立场(左右派)还是跟个人魅力有关。比Sarah Palin 强 ... 吗?见上。而且Palin 在某类人之中是 rock star级别的魅力,自由派的人感受不到,不等于她没有魅力。

但我可以肯定地说,他对于大众的个人魅力不如 Bill Clinton,更加赶不上 Ronald Reagan,差远了去了。怎么没见有人对他们的强大魅力感到害怕呢?他们又是怎么利用强大的个人魅力做出了什么可怕的事情呢?

Obama 是靠了个人魅力爬上去的么?不是。在芝加哥搞政治,光靠迷人,帅,能冒出头来么?不能。Primary 的时候是依靠迷人的魅力击败 Hillary Clinton 的么?不是,虽然上面说过在魅力方面 Hillary 的确逊一筹。Hillary 是怎么输掉的,参见The Atlantic Monthly 和 Newsweek 报道的HRC竞选班子的混乱内幕。大选是因为Obama 的个人魅力超过了 McCain 才获胜么?不是。蓝州红州,这是早已定局的政治立场之别。中间摇摆不定的几个州,也并不是依靠个人魅力赢得的,而是感谢GWB帮着共和党输掉的。People are FED UP. Fed up with Republican rule. Virginia 变蓝,North Carolina 变蓝,除了对现实不满以外,过去几年的人口迁徙和组成变化也是很大的原因。Virginia 在州长和 Senate 选举里面,几年前就已经蓝了。

说实在的,我一直搞不清这个"Obama 个人魅力"的神话是从哪儿冒出来的。Give people some credit. 民主党在今年的美国大选里自上到下普遍获胜,很明显是因为大多数选民作出的政治选择,个人魅力起到多少作用,说服了多少摇摆的选民?为什么这个神话常盛不衰?
how can you make sure mr. obama won't exploit it when he gets into dirty political mess?
How can you make sure anyone else won't exploit anything? You throw him out of the office in the next election. This is how the system works, as demonstrated in this year's election.

Who made sure that GWB wouldn't exploit ... whatever, in his second term? Why weren't people so scared of HIM in 2004?
此喵已死,有事烧纸

buzz
Posts: 560
Joined: 2008-09-06 15:53

Post by buzz » 2008-12-02 8:43

拿来比内战前的林肯算什么。比罗斯福的才阴险。内战跟二战能比么?我对经济的看法比大多数人都悲观好几倍。反正现在选举也完了,老子实话实说,总统能做的事情有限。这场经济危机最坏的时候还没到呢。两年内要能出现好转的迹象就不错了。别说经济危机,连金融危机都尚未控制住。现在这些too big too fail 的大银行,没准会有政府都觉的too big too save 救不下来的一天。会不会象三十年代大萧条导致二战,谁都说不准。
用不着这么悲观阿。 虽然我喜欢冷嘲热讽你们这些奥巴马的粉丝, 但我不得不说,一个积极的总统能做的事情还是有很多的。 罗斯福,里根就是先例。奥巴马现在做得就很好呀。 况且你没看见, 人人都在报上,电台,电视里指手划脚, 教他该怎么怎么做。多热心可爱的美国人民阿。

现在大家都有核武器。 傻子才会打世界大战呢。

tiffany
Posts: 24708
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:59

Post by tiffany » 2008-12-02 8:46

同学们,同学们,我们有必要争论还没有发生的事情么?我们在网络上也混了不少年了,哪一次打嘴仗辩论一方辩手说服另方辩手了?尤其这种句子大部开头以如果,假如,你怎么知道某某在某时就会/不会做某事⋯⋯这么多虚拟语气句子,你们还说的那么起劲!唉,真浪费网络资源!
jun,去写书评影评!
knowing,给咱介绍街边小馆漫哈屯夜生活以及你们book club又看啥郁闷书了!
乡音无改鬓毛衰

火星狗
Posts: 3171
Joined: 2006-03-03 13:56

Post by 火星狗 » 2008-12-02 8:49

恩……我从来没认真考虑过Obama的“危险的”个人魅力是从何而来的问题。的确哦,以前的竞选人从来没被揪出过这个问题来。那是因为敌人把他们的其他问题给揪出来当成攻击的目标。Mr. Prez-elect的毛病大概实在是太难抓,一开始说他“黑”,但是敌人自己也知道这种策略discrimination的色彩太明显,会在吸引一部分人的同时狠狠推开另一部分人。这个Hilter/Lenin式的个人魅力的说法不知道是谁最先想出来的,说实话我很佩服能揪出这一点的人。但是这个问题和以前所有敌人揪出来的其他人的道德问题之类的有一个非常明显的共同特征。He has this issue和he will do harm to us之间其实并没有充分必要的逻辑关系。甚至He has this issue本身是positive还是negative也完全取决于群众站的位置。其实仍旧是投合一部分人的恐惧心理,很多时候,这种恐惧心理是无法in public光明正大的说出来的。提出He has this issue的敌人其实是加强了某种心理暗示,it's more manipulative than it's true.
如果是爱,就怎么也不可怕。
只是梦境而已。

Jun
Posts: 27816
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Post by Jun » 2008-12-02 8:54

Bill Clinton 喜欢到处乱睡跟 Bill Clinton 会把国家搞垮之间有必然联系么?这个宣传当时也非常受欢迎。
此喵已死,有事烧纸

森林的火焰
Posts: 2913
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Contact:

Post by 森林的火焰 » 2008-12-02 9:43

里根好跟罗斯福比的么?没有里根可能大家现在的日子还好过点,起码没有培养出这么多恨死美国的恐怖分子。
http://harps.yculblog.com
搬家了搬家了

bootchange
Posts: 88
Joined: 2008-03-13 13:16

Post by bootchange » 2008-12-02 11:39

buzz wrote:特雷莎修女在印度贫民窟操心了一辈子,活人无数,临老才成了saint.
特修女难道不是大半辈子都在梵蒂冈或者什么非Calcutta的地方?她的慈善组织不是印度唯一拒绝公开财务的组织?难道不是她的看护所里连麻药都没有,义工也大多没有受过必要的医护训练,因为她相信痛苦是最接近上帝的途径?然后在很多回教徒痛苦的死去之后为他们受洗?

我不是说她没有善行,只是说她是saint,又说奥巴马是saint,让我为奥巴马担忧。

Knowing
Posts: 34487
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Post by Knowing » 2008-12-02 11:47

我说<纽约客>杂志把OBAMA 当圣人先知是开玩笑的。我不该假设任何一个看到我胡扯说笑的人都是<纽约客>的读者,或者有耐心读完整篇<joshua generation>。这笑话跟那个恐怖分子封面一样不可笑。我错了,我认错还不行吗?你们饶了我,别再为OBAMA 有没有资格跟其他SAINT 比较争论下去了。

我就地认错:OBAMA 不是圣人。没人说OBAMA 是圣人。(除了喜剧演员和不逗的小K).OBAMA 不应该当国王。总统不应该终身制。两届任期限制很有道理。
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gigi
Posts: 700
Joined: 2004-06-29 12:42

Post by gigi » 2008-12-02 11:59

¿ÉÁ¯µÄСK¡£¡£¡£
ÎÒÒ²ÈÏ´í£¬ ÎÒ²»Ó¦¸Ã˵ÎÒÖ§³ÖOBAMAµ±Éϵۡ£ :f19:

Jun
Posts: 27816
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Post by Jun » 2008-12-02 12:10

我这个一向被人讥笑为太严肃、没有幽默感的人(all true)忍不住暴笑起来。 :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

还有人把 Sarah Palin 当成大救星呢,大救星还有37岁的 Louisiana 州长 Bobby Jindal 呢,要不要替 Sarah 和 Bobby 也担心担心?
或者有耐心读完整篇<joshua generation>
Yeah, it's so long, clearly an elitist article. See how short my recommended article is? :frog: :party003:
此喵已死,有事烧纸

buzz
Posts: 560
Joined: 2008-09-06 15:53

Post by buzz » 2008-12-03 0:43

我也进来认个错。 非要揪着小K同学的笑话当真。 不吃饱了撑的么, 太没有幽默感了。。。

joe_cool
Posts: 387
Joined: 2008-09-23 8:37

Post by joe_cool » 2008-12-03 11:01

小时候看新闻联播,老听到美国国务卿贝克如何如何,印象特深刻,都是里根时代的老皇历了。现在希拉里当了国务卿,估计也会老在新闻联播里出现,美国国务卿克林顿,听着也挺顺耳的。 :-)
一要淡定,二要花钱。

lvxiu
Posts: 170
Joined: 2006-07-16 19:27

Post by lvxiu » 2008-12-03 11:02

就冲着能多看看bill也不错啊。他们两夫妻是买一送一的bundle哇 :shock:
左手有鸡右手鸭!

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