[讨论]Unconditional love
[讨论]Unconditional love
听过看过主张父母对孩子unconditional love，在这种环境中长大的孩子容易有安全感。那么，恋人之间是不是也主张这种unconditional love呢？
Last edited by lucoco on 2008-12-09 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
一个人的性格决定他的命运。
如果自己从小就没收到过 unconditional love，成年后即使爱人拿出来给自己，恐怕也难以接受，因为不习惯，不知道怎样接受这样的爱。而且，因为小时候的 conditional 训练，而把一切普通的人人都会有的自然的微词都直觉地解释为“强迫我改变”的控制而感到难受。
在不知道各人婚姻关系的具体情况下，泛泛而言，我的感觉是：从小没有 unconditional love 的环境，长大以后可能会不知道怎样分辨 conditional and unconditional love。问题在自己身上，要把自己医治调理好之后，才能知道对方给你的是有条件还是无条件的爱。
假设一下，如果你跟对方地位对调，你有没有对他抱怨？他是怎样应答你的抱怨的？夸奖赞美呢？跟自己的自然反应有什么不同？还可以参考一下其他你认识的，据你所知是健康幸福的人，他们在被你抱怨和批评的时候是怎样反应的，被夸奖的时候又是怎样的？
在不知道各人婚姻关系的具体情况下，泛泛而言，我的感觉是：从小没有 unconditional love 的环境，长大以后可能会不知道怎样分辨 conditional and unconditional love。问题在自己身上，要把自己医治调理好之后，才能知道对方给你的是有条件还是无条件的爱。
假设一下，如果你跟对方地位对调，你有没有对他抱怨？他是怎样应答你的抱怨的？夸奖赞美呢？跟自己的自然反应有什么不同？还可以参考一下其他你认识的，据你所知是健康幸福的人，他们在被你抱怨和批评的时候是怎样反应的，被夸奖的时候又是怎样的？
此喵已死，有事烧纸
unconditional love不等于什么都不能抱怨吧？就算是父母对子女，也有教育的问题，否则就是spoiling. 小孩要玩火你总不能由着他玩吧？两个人不管爱得多深，婚姻生活还是得慢慢磨合。两个人在一起生活把棱角磨平的过程无论如何总不会一点痛都没有吧？自己对自己还有看不惯的时候呢，更何况另外一个人。
而且我觉得爱人之间其实不存在unconditional love这回事。首先你肯定是因为对方有某种你喜欢的地方才会爱上吧？要不那么多人为什么偏偏是他？爱上这回事本身就是有条件的。爱上之后在一起生活了，肯定都有一条底线。在超过那条底线之前，要学习的是求同存异，接受对方不是按自己标准打造的。在超过那条底线之后，爱人就不是爱人了。最最基本的，如果对方已经不爱你了，你还能无条件的继续爱他么？正常人肯定不能。
而且我觉得爱人之间其实不存在unconditional love这回事。首先你肯定是因为对方有某种你喜欢的地方才会爱上吧？要不那么多人为什么偏偏是他？爱上这回事本身就是有条件的。爱上之后在一起生活了，肯定都有一条底线。在超过那条底线之前，要学习的是求同存异，接受对方不是按自己标准打造的。在超过那条底线之后，爱人就不是爱人了。最最基本的，如果对方已经不爱你了，你还能无条件的继续爱他么？正常人肯定不能。
Last edited by dropby on 2008-12-07 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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mirrorflower
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: 2008-11-04 17:26
我的一点小理解，"unconditional love"就是当对方显露出一些缺陷的时候，小到像孩子打破一个杯子，在那一瞬间，有没有感觉到自己对对方的爱被challenge了，在看到对方flaw的一瞬间，有没有感觉到自己对对方的爱shake了一下，有没有下意识的怀疑。能做到这一点，并不需要无限包容的圣人，只要对对方的缺陷有足够认识，并且可以接受就行，做到这一点大概也需要一段时间的self-digging和thinking。如果觉得某些缺陷无法接受，大概就谈不上"unconditional love"了。不过我也是纸上谈兵。
我觉得"unconditional love"的基础是trust，很需要点时间精力build的，不会从天上掉下来。如果是小孩，大概是要对孩子有基本的trust，相信这孩子不是为了和你作对来到这个世界上的。孩子会犯错，会有这样和那样的阶段，但是孩子的目的不是为了trouble你，harm你，有坚定的信念孩子的本质是爱父母的。如果是另一半，更是需要有很好的trust才行。如果一段关系有无法弥补的缺陷，大概很难做到"unconditional love"了，只有充分了解自己和对方是什么样的人，both positive and negative, appreciate the positive, be not threatened by the negative。要有信心你选择的partner始终是那个人，本质不会改变，be consistent。当然一开始选错那就很惨了。上面仍旧是个人理解，纸上的理论。
我觉得"unconditional love"的基础是trust，很需要点时间精力build的，不会从天上掉下来。如果是小孩，大概是要对孩子有基本的trust，相信这孩子不是为了和你作对来到这个世界上的。孩子会犯错，会有这样和那样的阶段，但是孩子的目的不是为了trouble你，harm你，有坚定的信念孩子的本质是爱父母的。如果是另一半，更是需要有很好的trust才行。如果一段关系有无法弥补的缺陷，大概很难做到"unconditional love"了，只有充分了解自己和对方是什么样的人，both positive and negative, appreciate the positive, be not threatened by the negative。要有信心你选择的partner始终是那个人，本质不会改变，be consistent。当然一开始选错那就很惨了。上面仍旧是个人理解，纸上的理论。
Last edited by 火星狗 on 2008-12-08 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
如果是爱，就怎么也不可怕。
只是梦境而已。
只是梦境而已。
Conditioning refers to the Pavlovian training.
You couple food with bells, then after a while the dog salivate to the sound of bells even in the absence of food.
Conditional child-training means that the parent couples the demonstration of love and comfort (hugging, affectionate words, physical contacts indicating warmth and assurance) with, for example, good grades at school or being obedient at home.
Meanwhile, the parent couples undesirable behaviors (eg, poor grades at school, being "naughty", disobeying adults) with threats and action: withholding love and affection, beating and physical punishment, verbal humiliation, etc.
That is what conditional love is. It is NOT telling children to clean up their room or do their homework. It is telling children "If you don't clean your room, mommy won't love you any more" (and follow that with action of physically rejecting the child) or "If you get another D at school, you will have no lunch and dinner today" and carry out the threat.
*******************************
After years and years of such training, the child (later the adult) instinctively attaches the display of love and affection with these stimuli (eg, wealth, popularity, "achievements" and "success", obedience). Therefore he or she is unable to DE-COUPLE love with these stimuli. When a person says, "I love you," he or she instinctively interprets that as, "I want you do these things or be this (better) person."
Meanwhile, a person who has been thoroughly trained in conditional love also confuse these stimuli (eg, grades, work, lack of wealth, lack of "success", losing a wallet, forgeting a date) with another person's affection and love.
Because criticism was so closely tied with grave threats ("mommy will leave you at the bus stop and let strangers take you home") or actual physical punishment in childhood, the adult will continue to emotionally link criticism (even though it is not given out by his or her parents any more) directly with grave emotional and physical danger. Thus, to these people, criticism hurts far more than it would to others who grew up in UN-conditioned love.
People who have been raised in conditional love usually have difficulty in identifying and accepting unconditional love because it is entirely unfamiliar or alien to their understanding of the world and relationships.
You couple food with bells, then after a while the dog salivate to the sound of bells even in the absence of food.
Conditional child-training means that the parent couples the demonstration of love and comfort (hugging, affectionate words, physical contacts indicating warmth and assurance) with, for example, good grades at school or being obedient at home.
Meanwhile, the parent couples undesirable behaviors (eg, poor grades at school, being "naughty", disobeying adults) with threats and action: withholding love and affection, beating and physical punishment, verbal humiliation, etc.
That is what conditional love is. It is NOT telling children to clean up their room or do their homework. It is telling children "If you don't clean your room, mommy won't love you any more" (and follow that with action of physically rejecting the child) or "If you get another D at school, you will have no lunch and dinner today" and carry out the threat.
*******************************
After years and years of such training, the child (later the adult) instinctively attaches the display of love and affection with these stimuli (eg, wealth, popularity, "achievements" and "success", obedience). Therefore he or she is unable to DE-COUPLE love with these stimuli. When a person says, "I love you," he or she instinctively interprets that as, "I want you do these things or be this (better) person."
Meanwhile, a person who has been thoroughly trained in conditional love also confuse these stimuli (eg, grades, work, lack of wealth, lack of "success", losing a wallet, forgeting a date) with another person's affection and love.
Because criticism was so closely tied with grave threats ("mommy will leave you at the bus stop and let strangers take you home") or actual physical punishment in childhood, the adult will continue to emotionally link criticism (even though it is not given out by his or her parents any more) directly with grave emotional and physical danger. Thus, to these people, criticism hurts far more than it would to others who grew up in UN-conditioned love.
People who have been raised in conditional love usually have difficulty in identifying and accepting unconditional love because it is entirely unfamiliar or alien to their understanding of the world and relationships.
Last edited by Jun on 2008-12-08 10:28, edited 3 times in total.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
同意蚕博意见。首先要武装好自己强大的内心。不过哈，这个人跟人是不一样的，有些人天生对别人的情绪敏感，比如阿土仔，哄他睡觉的时候我哄烦了真生气了，声色俱厉一声吆喝：睡觉！他小眼睛看看他老娘，就比较识做的放倒不做活猴儿状往起蹿了。要是我没有真生气，他小子就谄媚的笑嘻嘻的，晃悠悠的又起来了，晃悠悠的又起来了，直到他老娘真生气了为止。
所以我觉得lucoco小朋友应该先放开怀抱全盘接受自己，你得相信你的核心内容是不随日常生活的起落而改变的，而这个核心内容是很让人爱的，做到自己爱自己。然后呢，不是所有的事情都是爱不爱的问题。好比你多做家务，劳工赞不绝口，那固然是因为爱，但是很大一部分也是因为你的劳动方便了他的生活，要是换一钟点工，他也赞不绝口，难道就能说他是爱钟点工？所以说啊，爱不爱这个事情哈，别太纠结了，放松点儿的话，可能真是退一步海阔天空呢。
所以我觉得lucoco小朋友应该先放开怀抱全盘接受自己，你得相信你的核心内容是不随日常生活的起落而改变的，而这个核心内容是很让人爱的，做到自己爱自己。然后呢，不是所有的事情都是爱不爱的问题。好比你多做家务，劳工赞不绝口，那固然是因为爱，但是很大一部分也是因为你的劳动方便了他的生活，要是换一钟点工，他也赞不绝口，难道就能说他是爱钟点工？所以说啊，爱不爱这个事情哈，别太纠结了，放松点儿的话，可能真是退一步海阔天空呢。
乡音无改鬓毛衰
I often sound as if I'm blaming parents, but the issue is not about blame. The fact of the matter is, the way a person raises his or her child (and a large part of most interpersonal relationships) is almost entirely learned from his or her parents, and these parents from their parents. If one's parents have problematic, incorrect, counterproductive ways of treating children and managing interpersonal relationships, these ways are perpetuated through many generations.
The lucky people perpetuate loving, unconditional ways of raising children (and living in general) through generations too, and they do it without thinking. The unlucky people who have not learned unconditional love from their parents can benefit from learning it from other sources, like books, psychotherapy, and friends and role models, and practice it through conscious thinking. Tough work, sure, but learning it benefits themselves, their children, and future generations.
The lucky people perpetuate loving, unconditional ways of raising children (and living in general) through generations too, and they do it without thinking. The unlucky people who have not learned unconditional love from their parents can benefit from learning it from other sources, like books, psychotherapy, and friends and role models, and practice it through conscious thinking. Tough work, sure, but learning it benefits themselves, their children, and future generations.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
白博说得好。孩子的问题我不懂，从成人来说，事事联系到爱上就很紧张了，还要分辨是否无条件的爱？如果真的无条件了（Jun说的conditional和unconditional training的理论另讲），岂非代表人际关系中完全不需要努力了？tiffany wrote:你得相信你的核心内容是不随日常生活的起落而改变的，而这个核心内容是很让人爱的，做到自己爱自己。然后呢，不是所有的事情都是爱不爱的问题。.... 爱不爱这个事情哈，别太纠结了，放松点儿的话，可能真是退一步海阔天空呢。
并且，虽然约摸觉得自己的‘核心内容’还过得去，从来没想过要别人无条件地爱我。自己无条件的爱自己，也不是那么容易的事情呢。再说了，即使一时没有貌似很爱自己的人，也并不代表自己不值得爱了。世界上的人多着呢。
ÎҵĸоõluccocoÌáµ½µÄÕâÖÖÇé¿öºÜÆձ飬¾ÍÊÇÐÄÀïÒ²ÖªµÀ¸¸Ä¸ÊÇÕæµÄÌÛ°®×Ô¼º£¬ËûÃÇҲûÓÐJunËù˵µÄconditional loveµÄ±íÏÖ£¬µ«ÊÇÒòΪ¸¸Ä¸Ò»Ïò¶¼¸ß±ê×¼ÑÏÒªÇó£¬ÓÀÔ¶¸úÖÜΧµÄÈ˱ȣ¬ËùÒÔÎÞÐÎÖиø×ÓÅ®µÄѹÁ¦¾ÍÊÇÏ£Íû×Ô¼º±íÏֵĹ»ºÃÒÔÂú¸¸Ä¸µÄÒ⣬ÒÔÂúʦ³¤µÄÒ⣬ÒÔÂúÖÜΧÈ˵ÄÒ⣬¼Ì¶ø¾õµÃ±ðÈËÖ»ÓÐÔÚ×Ô¼º±íÏֺõÄʱºò²ÅÂúÒâ×Ô¼º¡£
ÎÒ×Ô¼ºget throughµÄ¹ý³ÌÊÇÕæµØ×öµ½×ã¹»ºÃÁËËûÃÇû»°ËµÁË¿ªÊ¼¿ä½±ÎÒÁË==|||£¬ÄÇÒ»ÌìÎÒºöÈ»¾Í¶Ô×Ô¼ºÓÐÐÅÐÄÁË£¬ÒÔºóÒ²²»ÔÙÐèҪͨ¹ý±ðÈ˵ķ´Ó¦À´¿Ï¶¨×Ô¼ºÁË¡£Ã¿¸öÈ˶¼Óв»Í¬µÄ·½·¨°É£¬×îÖÕÈÃ×Ô¼ºÇ¿´ó¡£
ÎÒ×Ô¼ºget throughµÄ¹ý³ÌÊÇÕæµØ×öµ½×ã¹»ºÃÁËËûÃÇû»°ËµÁË¿ªÊ¼¿ä½±ÎÒÁË==|||£¬ÄÇÒ»ÌìÎÒºöÈ»¾Í¶Ô×Ô¼ºÓÐÐÅÐÄÁË£¬ÒÔºóÒ²²»ÔÙÐèҪͨ¹ý±ðÈ˵ķ´Ó¦À´¿Ï¶¨×Ô¼ºÁË¡£Ã¿¸öÈ˶¼Óв»Í¬µÄ·½·¨°É£¬×îÖÕÈÃ×Ô¼ºÇ¿´ó¡£
不是所有歌声都掠过耳旁，而不留在心上
我认为先别把 reciprocity 和 exchange 搞混了。
人是社会动物，互相模仿，你敬我一尺，我敬你一丈，跟人建立彼此相处的 comfort level 和信任程度。这是一个互动的过程。如果你对我很冷漠，那么即使你本身有很可爱或者很成功的特质，我也不一定会对你特别巴结讨好。而我对你好，常常是因为你对我好，我对你更好，你对我更好，这样的互动过程。
人做事是需要 reward 的，这是条件反射，行为规律，自然本能。正面地通过互动(positive reinforcement)增加彼此的好感、安抚、或者爱，主动地表达和加强对对方的好意，自然带来对方对自己的好意。这是完全正常的过程。
父母与后代的关系，跟其他人际关系不同。幼儿时期，完全依赖父母提供一切，包括生存基本需要。所以父母对儿女的掌控权，跟其他人际关系的强度和对人的影响程度不可相提并论。
人是社会动物，互相模仿，你敬我一尺，我敬你一丈，跟人建立彼此相处的 comfort level 和信任程度。这是一个互动的过程。如果你对我很冷漠，那么即使你本身有很可爱或者很成功的特质，我也不一定会对你特别巴结讨好。而我对你好，常常是因为你对我好，我对你更好，你对我更好，这样的互动过程。
人做事是需要 reward 的，这是条件反射，行为规律，自然本能。正面地通过互动(positive reinforcement)增加彼此的好感、安抚、或者爱，主动地表达和加强对对方的好意，自然带来对方对自己的好意。这是完全正常的过程。
父母与后代的关系，跟其他人际关系不同。幼儿时期，完全依赖父母提供一切，包括生存基本需要。所以父母对儿女的掌控权，跟其他人际关系的强度和对人的影响程度不可相提并论。
此喵已死，有事烧纸
I can not agree any more.Jun wrote:The unlucky people who have not learned unconditional love from their parents can benefit from learning it from other sources, like books, psychotherapy, and friends and role models, and practice it through conscious thinking. Tough work, sure, but learning it benefits themselves, their children, and future generations.
我其实真正开始思考这些问题是离开了校园经济上独立之后（可能那之前还是有些恐惧如果blame parent，我的学业就无以为继了
）。我当时在日本念书，同一年有个北京来的小孩，当时只是觉得他特阳光向上，无意中聊天说起资格考试，他喜滋滋的说，我这次是考的很轻松，打电话回去我爸妈好一阵夸我呢。我很惊奇，因为在我家那考第一名是应该，第一名有时候还没有用，要满分才行呢，那一瞬间，我觉得我很妒忌那个男生的那种快乐， 而我作为当年资格考的第一名，连想快乐的心思都没有！不过我这么多年来的观察学习的结果还是很悲观的，爱自己，爱别人，真的需要学习，练习，这个过程很漫长，而且需要很大的耐心和信心。很多时候，对一个敏感多疑的人来说，放弃比坚持到底容易太多。一个人的性格决定他的命运。
成年人当然应该对自己负责，可是有些人learning curve 比较长而以。tiffany wrote:这个自然，不过到了成年以后，还纠结在这个“因为别人如何如何，所以我怎样怎样”吧，感觉不够成年人。
成年人要对自己的外貌负责，当然也要对自己的精神健康负责。
当然我这是站着说话不腰疼。
至于纠结不纠结的问题，也是个体差异，有些人容易纠结，有些人洒脱大方。
Last edited by lucoco on 2008-12-08 21:51, edited 1 time in total.
一个人的性格决定他的命运。
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orangetabby
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不要悲观啦。你肯定已经有很多改变了。lucoco wrote:I can not agree any more.Jun wrote:The unlucky people who have not learned unconditional love from their parents can benefit from learning it from other sources, like books, psychotherapy, and friends and role models, and practice it through conscious thinking. Tough work, sure, but learning it benefits themselves, their children, and future generations.
我其实真正开始思考这些问题是离开了校园经济上独立之后（可能那之前还是有些恐惧如果blame parent，我的学业就无以为继了
我觉的我们成长的时候，因为中国文化很少用语言直接表述爱，爱被神秘化了。你喜欢一个人，想跟他／她在一起，分享时光，就是爱了。你父母爱你表现在关心你吃什么穿什么想知道你在干什么想跟你在一起，你丈夫喜欢看见你跟你拉手散步说话接吻，或者什么也不做知道你在屋子里就安心，那也是爱，那有什么条件不条件的。爱就是看见听见闻见对方能激发体内的几种激素的反应，至于怎么处理不同意见，鼓励对方，发表意见，都是个表达方式，跟他本人有关，跟你关系不大。什么都扯上爱，没必要。
有事找我请发站内消息
其实幼儿和成年中间有一段, 主要是TEENAGE, 是通过PEER来看自己的. 很多时候是很残酷的PEER, 而孩子自己没有能力选择和改变.tiffany wrote:哎，我最近未雨绸缪的在研读科学养孩儿书，书里的说法是这样儿的：小朋友小的时候是通过别人主要是父母来看自己的，到了青春期开始真正了解自己是什么样儿的人，才长大。
please家长是人的天性，长大以后就是在工作场合长袖善舞，是生存必须技能，其实。做小情应声虫，只要别把自己弄得miserable就好。
所以强调父母的作用之前, 先要强调父母的参与. 我们宝宝这样一岁就上幼儿园的孩子, 学校的影响很大. 不给任何指导帮助就把他扔到残酷的丛林里, 接送匆忙没机会和老师好好交流, 实在是有负罪感.
我觉得吧，我们这一代中国人普遍是在缺乏安全感的环境中成长起来的。我们被灌输的那些东西，that's the only thing we know and believe for most of time 。但是这并不意味着那一定就是放之四海而皆准的真理。事实上很多人是在不同的环境中按照截然不同的价值观培养起来的，他们似乎也并没有变成我们爹妈告诫的反面典型，很多人生活的很幸福很self-contented。
前不久某论坛上有段发言(木开转述的小方的意见)，关于小孩的reward system，对何为unconditional love也讨论了一下，虽然很短，对我启发却很大。虽然我自己也一直在费力的思考这些问题，但是我却没法作出这样的总结。因为我是按照中国老价值观raise起来的，我很难突破自身的局限。突然看到另一种抱着截然不同的价值观的人现身说法，毫不费力的把困扰我的问题阐述的这样简单明白，感觉真是好。目前为止我自己是没有可能把这些问题轻易的想的这样明白的，although I really want。
前不久某论坛上有段发言(木开转述的小方的意见)，关于小孩的reward system，对何为unconditional love也讨论了一下，虽然很短，对我启发却很大。虽然我自己也一直在费力的思考这些问题，但是我却没法作出这样的总结。因为我是按照中国老价值观raise起来的，我很难突破自身的局限。突然看到另一种抱着截然不同的价值观的人现身说法，毫不费力的把困扰我的问题阐述的这样简单明白，感觉真是好。目前为止我自己是没有可能把这些问题轻易的想的这样明白的，although I really want。
如果是爱，就怎么也不可怕。
只是梦境而已。
只是梦境而已。
我的无条件爱给无条件爱我的成年人，不是小孩子。成年人不配得到互动的温暖和安慰么？成年人也不是每时每刻都得硬撑着刀枪不入的架势过日子。我觉得教育就那么会事儿。爹妈教育我过程里出的错儿多了去了，我越长越知道他们那里做的不对，可这不妨碍我爱他们他们爱我，也没什么可怨恨的，谁还能都做对啊，就一个孩子，都是摸石头过河的。。。小时候没学的东西长大了自己学，不就是慢点，就算学不会就学不会呗，有ISSUE 就有ISSUE，什么大不了的事情，谁还能一点ISSUE 没有。
再说了，我见过爹妈给的爱特充分，长的特SECURE 的人，觉得也就那么会事儿。还是带点心理缺陷的人比较有DRIVE。happiness is overrated. Most accomplished people have to be somewhat insecure and hungry.
再说了，我见过爹妈给的爱特充分，长的特SECURE 的人，觉得也就那么会事儿。还是带点心理缺陷的人比较有DRIVE。happiness is overrated. Most accomplished people have to be somewhat insecure and hungry.
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家里没人说, 幼儿园全英文. 每次必给一个大拥抱. 总不能为了无条件的爱的理论憋着吧 It's reciprocity, not exchange. Read my post above. Again.
The dynamics of imitating each other, giving each other comfort and warmth and get it in return, is an essential part of human nature. It is NOT conditional love.
Ironically, people who don't know what unconditional love has the biggest trouble with this particular process of reciprocity of praise and comfort with other people. It is people who have been raised with UN-conditional love who can give and take praise and comfort freely without fear.
The dynamics of imitating each other, giving each other comfort and warmth and get it in return, is an essential part of human nature. It is NOT conditional love.
Ironically, people who don't know what unconditional love has the biggest trouble with this particular process of reciprocity of praise and comfort with other people. It is people who have been raised with UN-conditional love who can give and take praise and comfort freely without fear.
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When someone shows love and care for me, I love them back. If someone is cold and unresponsive to my showing of good will, I stop, and bond with someone else. That is the basic principle of human relationship and connection. How is it the same as "If you don't get A on the exam, you get a beating."? Or "If you don't give me a big diamond ring, no sex for a month"?Knowing wrote:Reciprocity is just exchange with a larger buffer. All you are saying is do not relate behavior with immediate reward because that's exchange. Have the confidence the other people will reward you with "unconditional" love later, because that's reciprocity.
Loving someone unconditionally, does not mean loving someone who cannot or will not respond. That's not unconditional love. That's masochism.
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