老鼠的错

入得谷来,祸福自求。
tiffany
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老鼠的错

Post by tiffany » 2005-06-29 13:30

我不是在用botox么,刚刚战战兢兢过滤的那一点200微升溶液含价值150刀的botox---然后我就紧张扎不到细胞的问题,当然现在我已经认识到能不能扎到细胞最重要是脑片切没切好,但是我现在切脑片的条件相当稳定,还是有时好,有时侯没那么好,有时侯简直是很差---一看就没有能扎的细胞,不过很差的时候相当少,且原因明显,供氧不足。看文献有人说是应该30秒钟从切脑袋到脑子取出来,我照着这个标准努力,现在平均50秒,最快40秒。跟斜对门一个老教授聊天,说起来这个速度问题,他说:速度是一个方面,创伤是另外一个方面,不能只追求速度。然后我很烦恼的说我现在条件都差不多,为什么有时好,有时侯坏。老教授说:你知道,老鼠和老鼠是不一样的,有时侯是老鼠的问题。我很高兴,以后试验做不出来,我可以怪老鼠了。
the end
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花差花差小将军
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Post by 花差花差小将军 » 2005-06-29 13:36

是啊是啊尤其是碰到歪脑筋的老鼠
报告委座,不是我们无能,而是共军太狡猾
脚翘黄天宝
光吃红国宝

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-06-29 14:05

mmd,老子庄严宣布扎到歪脑筋的细胞还不如扎不到细胞。 :vomit: :let_me_die: :let_me_die: :let_me_die: :let_me_die:
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2005-06-29 14:17

:mrgreen: 小白你再这么撞, 脑片要出来了.

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2005-06-29 14:20

她们俩太喜欢这个图标了。 :f16:
Nevertheless, she persisted.

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-06-29 14:42

:let_me_die: :let_me_die: :let_me_die: 这么撞撞不成脑片,能撞成脑浆。 :gros_yeux_tristes: :gros_yeux_tristes:
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2005-06-29 14:43

你是说细胞就坏了么?

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-06-29 14:50

我是说本来人家很有组织的,撞着撞着就成糊糊了。
妈妈的,trace那么美丽,结果那么奇怪。 :let_me_die: :let_me_die:
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笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-06-29 16:53

哎,再过一阵子她俩就能炼成铁头功了。真是连上网灌水都没把功夫搁下。我幽幽地叹息。
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CAVA
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Post by CAVA » 2005-06-29 18:10

幸好恶人谷的墙很结实,经得起撞 :laughting015:

Elysees
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Post by Elysees » 2005-06-29 18:32

这个botox拿来做什么实验呢?是看老鼠脑细胞的皱纹能不能在botox下消掉吗?

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 8:04

Botox is a toxin that blocks neural signal transmission. Am I right, Doc?

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 8:12

4的。
准确的说,神经跟神经之间发信号不是发的都是打好包的小分子么,比如谷氨酸,这个包袱皮是脂类,包袱皮里面的内容往外放怎么放的呢?且听下回分解。
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风眉
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Post by 风眉 » 2005-07-01 9:02

俺怯怯地问,这个包袱是酯类,那么包袱里的内容是啥做的呢? :huh:
we lost in this masquerade.

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 9:08

English, please. I don't know the name of any of these molecules in Chinese...

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 9:11

most commonly used on peripheral nervouse system, acytlye coline, I do not promise that I spell the thing right :f21:
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 9:13

acetylcholine. You gotta spell it to write your manuscripts, doc.

Aren't neurotransmitters directly released into the synapses?

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 9:23

I wrote about botox for my candidancy exam proposal a few years ago. Botox was not this hot back then. Most of the references called it to treat migrane etc.

Dr. Tiffany, are you using it to paralyze the trnasmission between nerve cells in the brain?

I had the vague impression that botox works really well on motor neurons ?

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 9:26

It blocks fusion event, to be precise. Gotta go and sacrifice a rat, later
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风眉
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Post by 风眉 » 2005-07-01 9:40

把每个不认识的单词都用金山词霸翻出来,还是有很多找不到,还有更多的查到了也和外文一样不明所以。 :confused007:
叹息一声,俺渴求科学新知的心又受到了一次小小的打击。 :doh:
we lost in this masquerade.

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-07-01 10:01

急什么,等他们开始讲地球话的时候再急不迟。 :sleeping:
云浆未饮结成冰

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 10:17

Remember people have spent 20 years of the best time of their lives to learn this Martian language.

Silky, I'm not sure Botox has actually been FDA-approved for cosmetic treatment. They are, however, studying its effect on stroke-related muscle stiffness or paralysis. I don't know the details.

It's my very rough understanding that neurotransmitters are packaged into little capsules and the shells of these capsules are made from the presynaptic cell membrane. The balls then float, swim, glide toward the post-synaptic membrane and would normally fuse with the post-synaptic membrane and thus dump the content (eg, acetylcholine or serotonin or dopamine) into the post-synaptic cells... Does Botox block the receptors on the post-synaptic membrane or bind with the little capsules before they meet up with the PS membrane?

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 11:13

哎,老子用地球话来讲了啊。
话说人与人之间关系啥最重要?交流,交流啊。那么神经和神经之间关系哈最重要,那更是交流啊。
大家们都这把年纪,没吃过猪肉也见过猪跑,没切过脑片也见过脑子,脑子这个东西煮熟了灰糊糊的一坨,列位有研究精神的可以拔开来看一看,其实人家是有结构的,而且结构的相当精确。
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silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 11:25

(我凭着久远的记忆先说几句“非人话”,不对和不全的请白博来更正和补充。)

神经传导介质neural transmitters(化学小分子)乘着lipid vesicle的小船,从起点站(pre-synaptic neuron)出发,游过synapse的汪洋,到达终点站(post-synaptic neuron)。船上的有一个铰链(protein) , 和站台上的l两条铰链(proteins) ,一碰上即扭在一起,把小船拉过来,neural transmitters就跳上岸了。

Botox本质上是蛋白酶(protease),会把三条铰链里的一条切坏,以至于小船不能靠岸,神经信号也就传不下去了。

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 11:51

恩,这个主要还真是小船不能靠岸。不过它要靠的岸84递制终点站突触后,24小船终点站突触前膜。botox切的是小船靠那个岸的蛋白。
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Elysees
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Post by Elysees » 2005-07-01 11:54

系统管理员。。。。。。。。。。吐血的头像有没有?

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 12:02

:vomit:

I can't do with Chinese in this kind of discussion.

The blockage always has to do with the receptors -- be it on the post- or presynaptic membrane. I suppose Botox blocks post- membranal receptor, right? Prozac and co. block the the pre- receptors.

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 12:28

nah, jun you are talking about different things.
botox works on the process of transmitter release, a fusion event. basically, what happens during the event is that the vesicle, which is lipid membrane, fuses with pre-synaptic membrane---also lipid membrane, and the content of the vesicle is no longer contained and difuse freely across the space between pre and post synapse, and hits the receptor on the postsynaptic side. It is just something like a small soap bubble melt into a big soap bubble, and the air inside the small bubble is out. now, the process needs a couple protein in order for the vesicle to dock onto the presynaptic membrane, in another word, the small soap bubble needs some anchor-like structure to get in contact with the big soap bubble, and botox just hammer that structure down, thus, no transmitter release.
Prozac is, far as I remember, a 5-HT recycle blocker or 5-HT degradation blocker, anyway, it works to increase the 5-HT level in the brain. Its effect is mostly post-synaptic, I am not really sure there is pre-synaptic 5-HT receptors, though, will report back to you after a pubmed search
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笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-07-01 12:30

讲英文,讲英文。我是说这类话题管你们讲英文中文对我都不是地球话。 :cool2:
云浆未饮结成冰

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 13:04

Agree with Dr. Tiffany.

Prozac blocks the re-uptake sites of synaptic neurotransmitters on the pre-synaptic membrane, leading to an increase in serotonin in the synapse.

Although the receptors being blocked locate on pre-synaptic membrane, it makes more sense to define the effect as post-synaptic.

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 13:23

I see. I see. Botox prevents the fusion of neurotransmitter vesicles and the POSTsynaptic membrane, right?

Thanks, Docs!

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 13:37

nah, after fusion, transmitter is just free as bird, however, it is governed by the physical law, and goes across the synaptic cleft, from high concentration to low concentration, and of course it winds up hitting the receptor on the postsynaptic side, which located on the post- side.
Botox doesn't do a thing here, once the transmitter is released, botox doesn't affect its action anymore.
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 13:42

I need you to draw a picture.

Does botox block pre or post synaptic transmission? Shouldn't it be post, ie, on the other side of the sea? Once the fusion occurs and the transmitter released into the receiving neuron, the signal passes through (ie, not blocked or paralyzed).

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 13:49


tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 13:52

Image
first of all, synapses are actually tiny little structures that can only be visualized by electron--blahblah microscopy :whistling:
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2005-07-01 13:56

:action077: :admir001:

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 13:57

And where does botox fit? Post synaptic receptors, right?

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 14:03

nah, pre-side
u see those vesicles with transmitter in them? the picture did not draw a bounch of proteins that is the structural support that leads the vesicle to dock on the pre-side...
doing recording and the cell just crapped out on me, write more when I got another.
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 14:05

I surrender. This is way beyond me. :action077: :worthy:

Pt, you are 了得。 :super:

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-07-01 14:07

我就说你们没在讲地球话吧。
云浆未饮结成冰

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 14:12

我犯了概念性错误 :oops: ,还把Jun 搅和糊涂了. Jun最先说的对,白博说的也对---neurotransmitters在synapse是光溜溜儿的,不需要vesicle“小船”。

在pre-synaptic neuron里,vesicle“小船”载着neurotransmitters靠岸,靠的是pre-synaptic 的膜, botox切的铰链就在这个膜上。

一旦三条铰链绞住,vesicle“小船”和膜fuse,neurotransmitters就裸奔进到synapse里了。

synapse里,不能被post-synaptic neuron接收的多余的neurotransmitters可以被pre-synaptic neuron重新吸收,Prozac是妨碍这一步。

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 14:29

Thanks to Silky. Now I finally get it. You should teach.

I've been out of school for too long.

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 14:31

我确实有“毁”人不倦的理想,只是人家给不给我误人子弟的机会,可就难说了。 :doh:

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 14:44

丝博说的对。
哎,这个没什么复杂的。神经和神经之间要传递信息对吧?信息传递一个是给出消息方,一个是接受消息方。给出消息方给消息的方式就是释放神经递质,所谓神经递质都是些小分子的东西,有几种是氨基酸,反正都是些诸如此类的东西,在溶液里面扩散的很快的。这些小分子在细胞里面不是自由自在漂着的,而是给打成了一个一个的包裹的。有需要传递消息的时候,给出消息方就把包裹内容抖出去,这些小分子一下子就扩散到接受消息方了。接受消息方如何接受消息的呢?原来人家的细胞膜上有受体,就是能跟递质结合的蛋白质,一结合了,接受消息方就知道来消息了。
所以说,要阻断细胞之间互相传递消息过程有两个地方可以下手。1,你可以不让给出消息方发出消息,2,你可以不让接受消息方收到消息。botox作用就是第一种,它不让给出消息方发消息了。具体的过程经过若干科学家的研究也就是这个包裹内容抖出去的过程中有一个蛋白质给botox切掉了,切掉了以后,包裹就出不去了。
这东西说简单也简单,说复杂也复杂。
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silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 15:07

唉,今天下午的讨论,使我对科学研究再次产生了悲观主义的情绪。
我当年写的PROPPSAL是关于BOTOX怎么切那个绞索蛋白质的,切在什么位置上,怎么就切了,怎么就不切了,诸如此类。
跳开一步,这种研究简直就是在科学这个无穷大的尸体上,切下一条胳膊,片下一片小肉,剁成一星儿一星儿的渣儿。每个老板捡一个渣儿抱回自己的地盘儿,慢慢享用,还美不滋儿的。 :let_me_die:

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-01 15:08

Funny how it works. Just a few transmitters can pass on infinitely complex messages through the infinitely complex sending and receiving mechanism. How elegant nature is! (And no intelligence could have designed it.)

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-01 15:14

it is a network thing. a limited number of chemicals, and very well organized millions of cells, the potential is there
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silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-01 15:15

嘿嘿,昨天晚上还在CNN Anderson Cooper的节目里,听见有某个精神病专家(不是医生本人有病),说所谓抑郁症,才不是chemical imbalance,因为根本没有确切的化学检测手法么。因此,吃药也是大大地不可以的。至于治疗么,聊天、锻炼etc,就是不该吃药。

那医生提到聊天不一定非和医生聊,自己的宠物也行。好了,Anderson Cooper就一直问他:啊,所以说,得了抑郁症,您推荐不要吃药,要和狗聊天。把那医生鼻子气歪。

后来采访完那医生,Anderson Cooper介绍说这人是Tom Cruise他们科学真理教向教友推荐的医生。我笑,怪道呢。

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-07-01 15:16

白博研究到现在觉得好多东西特有道理是吧?
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Elysees
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Post by Elysees » 2005-07-01 15:20

我真不知道我干嘛一而再再而三的进这个帖子来折磨自己.....这下连图都出来了,妈妈米娅 :speechless002:

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