艺妓回忆录

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-11 19:58

唉，拍的很美-不是张艺谋式电脑染色廉价批量制造的美，而是纷繁复杂，层次丰富，细节充沛的美--就是浪费了。首先是巩利老是处在半疯狂半醉酒状态，坏的一点手段，一点目的都没有，使人完全不明白她的动机是什么，勾心斗角的不充分，情节就不够紧张。然后糖爹男主角不够英俊，引不起女观众的反特西。再然后章子怡不够美，也不够艺妓，除了跟杨紫琼学艺的时候稍有点含蓄风范，后面做事说话一点都没有味道。艺妓应该是随时随地含蓄完美，不露感情的女神现象，她可好--就是她自己，不用细说了。关键可是还是rob marshall 完全没掌握艺妓文化的神韵，前大半本电影还比较忠实的跟著书，二战后那段简直就是畅开了瞎编。怪不得日本人跟他急。
小感想：电影里的和服真好看，看书的时候我就爱读那些描写，看电影变成视觉特别爽。街道房子园林山水都好看，不知在哪里找出来拍的。
小感想又：床戏有够冷冰冰--如果可以勉强叫床戏的话，网上大家唾骂的章子怡糖爹床戏根本没出现，她可真倒酶，又白挨半天骂。

密斯张三 · Post by **密斯张三** » 2005-12-12 1:32

trailer里的艺伎表演（估计是电影高潮部分？）有点吓人，红唇白面的。
杨紫琼怎么样？

所谓床戏是从一个不相干的电影里截的图。

洛洛 · Post by 洛洛 » 2005-12-12 7:53

原文的糖爹还是毁容瘸腿的呢，够可以了。
对了小k推荐你一本书：one thousand new york buildings by harris。里面是按地段每个建筑的照片，然后说明历史和建筑形式。街边很多老房子的来龙去脉说得挺有意思。老厚的一本可以当凶器用，才20块钱。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 7:59

太美国啦，太美国啦，跟日本的艺妓有什么关系？

导演说他们搞过一次真的艺妓，两个艺妓两小时，也就是泡泡茶跳跳舞，10万美元！我倒。

洛洛 · Post by 洛洛 » 2005-12-12 8:39

我听说台湾夜总会的小姐，是按照15分钟为单位陪客人聊天倒酒的，跟医生一样。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 8:55

那段舞编得实在太差，太没有艺妓味道，怎么也不可能受到观众的赞赏。
画艺妓妆就是白脸红唇的，很少人会好看。因为章的眉眼长的不是最美，太素，还是'淡'妆时好看，因为下巴鼻子小脸轮廓精致，再加上皮肤晶莹些就好看了。而那样大白脸一画，脸上只剩眼睛和嘴唇，失去立体的脸颊和鼻子，她的小脸，巩莉的大方脸都不好看。杨紫琼轮廓本来就比较立体，再加上是容长脸，就还行。总结，扁平的东方人轮廓，腮红腮影很重要。不知道日本女人是怎么发明出这种极其避长扬短的妆来。

杨紫琼也还就是杨紫琼，本色表演，坚忍沉默挺有心计的传统女性那样儿，所以比其他俩个稍微好点，不过还是不象艺妓，比较象中国传统妇女。
毁容瘸腿的是二号糖爹，头号糖爹是主席，就是她的梦中糖爹，给买了一个果子冰筒吃的那个。哎，头发都稀疏了，脸也不好看，我看得很不爽。剩下的糖爹三号到N 号就更没法看了，都是变态啊，费了巨大的功夫，把她骗到房间里，不顾她的哀求和挣扎，一层层的把和服剥下来，剥棕子似的，剥到上半身裸露，看了看，就满意的走了。这是原书中的情节。美国观众们看了肯定都很满足的想：啊，东方人太奇怪，太神秘了！

然后我要重复一千遍，电影拍的实在好看，90% 的镜头都象浮世绘里截出来的，美啊美，而且那些和服实在是太好看了！

water · Post by **water** » 2005-12-12 9:23

看来又是形式大于内容。看是不会去看了。最多等DVD出来再瞟一眼。

不过看许多观众的评论，章和杨的表演都马马虎虎，没有赞，也没有什么贬，倒是巩利，喝彩声一片，说是最出色的一个。让我颇为好奇。

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 9:32

我老看了片花就说了，哪儿有艺伎瞪着眼睛直勾勾的看人露出牙齿来笑的。

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 9:38

公映了么？还是纽约又被选中先放了？

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 9:42

公映好几天了。
新的<金刚>声势很大，弄的我心痒痒也想看。

洛洛 · Post by 洛洛 » 2005-12-12 9:42

我们这边好像是12月21号公映？
我记得原书中三号糖爹（那个男爵）买了一套和服给她，让她换上去。然后底下人看见腰带打得乱七八糟，就知道怎么回事了。

Elysees · Post by **Elysees** » 2005-12-12 9:54

Knowing wrote:美国观众们看了肯定都很满足的想：啊，东方人太奇怪，太神秘了！

karen · Post by **karen** » 2005-12-12 10:18

The movie sounds really f**ked up. Can they not make a movie about Asians that doesn't have a Suzy Wong? It perpetuate the stereotype that Asian chicks all want ugly sugar daddies.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 10:25

艺伎的事业８９４找到长期的可靠的糖爹（们）。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 10:27

I would have felt so much more strongly against it had Rob Marshall not been the director. But I just love him. And I don't give a f__k about Japanese/Geisha culture. So I find the movie quite an amusing piece of eye candy.

Had the movie been "Memoir of A Peking Opera Singer" I would have been seriously offended.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 10:55

What else has Rob Marshall done besides Chicago?

Yeah, this movie seems very Suzy Wong. Oh, well. Gotta recoup that 80 some million bucks somehow.

I really want to see Syriana, but am worried that I'd get too pissed off and lose all hope for humanity.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 10:59

I wanna go to Narnia, i wanna be entertained without me thinking.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 11:04

You do know that Jeb Bush is starting a campaign to have every school kid in FLorida watch Narnia, right? And there are bible study classes that organize children to see Narnia and discuss the biblical meanings in the movie.

karen · Post by **karen** » 2005-12-12 11:07

Jun, did you see Good Night and Good Luck? I was surprised that George Clooney could make a movie like that.

艺伎的事业８９４找到长期的可靠的糖爹（们）。

Yeah, it's as simple as that, but the movie made it an epic-like romance, as if there is more to it than an exchange of money for services rendered. Are the audience so gullible these days, that they buy this "we prostitutes can love too" crap? It's like, oh wow, look, there is a woman who sells her body who also has a heart of gold.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 11:14

karen wrote: It's like, oh wow, look, there is a woman who sells her body who also has a heart of gold.

ha, don't u know this is a theme for a lot of literature men in the 30s, in China

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 11:16

No, I didn't see GNAGL for similar reasons. It's too depressing in the context of current social circumstancs.

Hookers with a heart of gold is probably the most enduring theme of Hollywood.

I'm not crazy about George Clooney, but he's done some really interesting movies. I am crazy about Peter Saarsgard, but am not really interested in his movies this year. The dilemma!

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 11:17

这事儿不好说。硬币的两面。反方说搞的再艺术还不就是钱色交易么, 逗谁玩呢。正方说关键就是艺妓传统把这个钱色交易上升到了艺术高度，你们不能不服。好比反方可以说鱼弄的再漂亮放碟子里送上来不就是连烧都没烧的鱼，卖那么贵！正方可以说人家不烧就能那么艺术好吃，那么贵也有人吃，怎么着？日本人自己可以随便批评，外人这么说就不大那什么。

I want to see GNAGL too. I am always happy to find a hot guy like GC is actually soulful.

karen · Post by **karen** » 2005-12-12 11:39

Before I saw Good Night and Good Luck , I too thought it would be depressing considering its political agenda. I was surprised that it was actually enjoyable to watch, even thought it's very much a piece of propaganda for the political left. Not bad for something as cute as george clooney.

Yeah, I know, the geishas have elevated the art of prostitution to an art form，但包装得再漂亮再含蓄，最终还是一手交钱一手交货。卖身这种文化有什么好尊重的？我最多觉得人各有所志，行行出状元。但尊敬她们就不必了。那些有钱的人，虽乐得花这个价儿享这个乐儿，但也不见他们尊重这些艺妓。再说艺术这次现在用得粉广泛, 跳burlesque的舞娘们也称自己为艺术家呢。
生鱼比普通馆子了烹调的鱼新鲜得多，空运过来的，运费可比馆子里雇用的墨西哥厨子贵，当然卖得价也高了。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 11:58

嗨，你花十块钱跟五大道街角买个翻版LV ，跟五百块在saks fifth 里买个真的LV ，看着差不多，装东西的功能没什么区别，再高级再低级的包也就是个包，你不见得尊重膜拜，(特别变态的fashion addict 除外)，肯定还是得对贵的那个小心爱护的多。别人要是说你干吗花那么多钱买个包，你还得跟他们急：这不是一个包，这是LV!

咱都没养过情妇，不过将心比心，这大概就是糖爹出大价钱养艺妓的心态。

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2005-12-12 12:06

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 12:11

Can you really call this prostitution? I mean they generally do not sleep with clients. Sure there is sexual satisfaction involved, but then isn't it true that most artistic performances have sexual component? Don't we enjoy looking at beautiful faces and bodies on the screen, on stage, on the dance floor, etc. etc.?

I just don't understand why it's so darned expensive.

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 12:25

They don't sleep with every client. But according to the book, every Geisha has to have a few patrons through out her life as her steady source of income. He pays for her daily expenses and tuition fees to advanced dancing classes etc. And they do have sex. The fact it is a relatively long term arrangement doesn't change the fact it is a money-sex exchange. And depends on how you define prostitution, you may or may not call Geisha high-end prostitute.
Personally, I think they are equivalence of 旧上海长三堂子, thus they are prostitutes.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 12:34

这跟海上花好象没啥区别吧？

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 12:37

是啊，就是中国妓院文学流行，好多文人写了好多婊子无情，甜言蜜语弄的人倾家荡产的半黄色半警世揭露文学，所以长三堂子没什么illusion, 民国初年就灭绝了. 而日本人对他们的文化很回护。

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 13:59

这个我就得说中国文人老想着不要钱的午饭的美事儿。没有闹到，心酸抱负，遂写婊子无情的故事。其实象这种有颗金子心灵的妓女故事，唐传奇之李娃传４一个多正面的典型啊。

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2005-12-12 14:02

I definitely want to watch this one just for the beautiful kimonos and scenes. I'm so vain that I even enjoy seeing other's beauty but not mine.

But I have to try hard to persuade SOMEBODY to watch it with me, or it'll be too cold to walk from dorm to Paramount then back.

It'll be easy job, which I already know. It took me one whole year to persuade SOMEBODY to watch Love Actually DVD with me, sigh.

密斯张三 · Post by **密斯张三** » 2005-12-12 14:09

如今的日本专业艺伎也很少了，数百而已。我猜艺伎也有等级之分，有的是歌舞伎，有的斟茶陪饮，有的长三些，有的么二些。传统艺伎表演性质可能更重？怎么说也是“古老的艺术”，以前还觉得应该跟什么能乐、狂言地位仿佛。erotical的吸引也是有的，但想象中仅限于和服的大阔领，低头时露出一段粉白脖颈水莲花的娇羞之类。

书里（美国化的）描写就是高级妓女了，虽然更体制化些，“恩客”圈子更exclusive些，有钱不算大爷至少要有介绍人还有点地位，不像卖油郎辛苦攒了十两银子就好独占花魁。

说到体制化，日本人真是有把一切发挥到极至的本事。我刚知道他们有个发明，用来模拟厕所冲水声，这样，不用浪费水就可以掩盖如厕的不雅声响

密斯张三 · Post by **密斯张三** » 2005-12-12 14:14

GC很有灵魂的，老早在那里拿捏导筒了，那个什么confession of a dangerous mind就是

还不错，Kaufman的剧本

刚忘了说，其实对trailer里那段舞蹈的化妆我还有心里准备，镇住我的是那个类T形台啊，那个探照灯啊，那个漫天花雨撒的confetti之类的

water · Post by **water** » 2005-12-12 14:14

Last month's vogue wrote something about this movie. The writer called geisha "the symbol of fashion in their era".

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2005-12-12 14:42

1？虽然我古文奇差，歪打正着李娃传倒是读过的，那不是先把男主角搞垮再build up的故事么？她开头也把他整得够呛不是吗？

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 14:57

对呀。当然闹的他倾家荡产是老鸨的主意了。后来李娃听见他乞讨声可怜，把他给捡回来帮助相公进步到官居若干品，没敢自称是大婆，道德很高尚，老天爷很赏识，给了他家坟头彩云地头特大号麦穗。这也算是金子心灵了。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 15:02

对呀。当然闹的他倾家荡产是老鸨的主意了。

Someone has to play the bad cop...

silkworm · Post by **silkworm** » 2005-12-12 15:10

我一直搞不清是艺妓还是艺伎，查查wikipedia，真长知识：

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BA%E4%BC%8E

[quote]在日

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 15:25

咦，那么说阿瑟高顿写的每个艺妓都有“老爷”照顾生活是捏造？公开拍卖初夜也是捏造？

与妓女的区别
在传统日本，把没有经过艺术培训而在酒席倒酒的女性称为“酎妇”，社会地位低微。卖淫女子则一般固定地被称作“女郎”、“游女”，她们之中，级别最高的称“太夫”、“花魁”。“太夫”或“花魁”不但年轻貌美，且于茶道、和歌、舞、香道等诸艺皆有不俗的造诣，服务对象只限于达官贵人，达官贵人亦以客礼待之，所以社会地位相对较高。但是无论“女郎”、“游女”还是“太夫”、“花魁”，都是会卖身的，而艺妓的真正身份是艺人，主要工作是待客作艺。

然而因为艺妓行业的兴盛，求人益多，且为风花雪月的环境，多少不免有唯利是图的业者，所以也有艺妓的出身是因为生家需用钱、孤儿等等社会弱势的因素，而签下卖身契，或遭人口贩子贩卖的。也许是为了早日还债赎身，也许是抗拒不了金钱诱惑，有些艺妓便开始从事性交易。虽然传统上，这类自甘沦落的行为是会受到惩戒的，但事实上，直至第二次世界大战战后为止，日本各地都广泛存在这种形同娼妓的卖身艺妓，而且变相专营这种生意的不肖业者亦多而有之。尽管如此，真正一流的艺妓还是“卖艺不卖身”的。“卖艺不卖身”并非指艺妓没有爱情生活，相反的，一流的艺妓和一般女性一样，可能会有唯一一个的爱人，称为“旦那（丈夫之意）”，甚至委身于他，而“旦那”也会提供金钱等实质援助，照料艺妓的生活所需。辞去艺妓工作后即与爱人结为连理，共组家庭者亦不乏其人。

婚嫁
出色的艺妓常常会成为达官贵人所追逐的对象，其中不乏两情相悦者。古代的日本，结婚后的女性必需放弃艺妓的工作，直到现代这个行规才被逐渐取消，让艺妓过上正常人的生活。但大部分的女性仍然依照传统，在婚后离开艺妓的行列，而离婚后重返艺妓行业的人却不在少数，其中当代最著名的莫过于中村喜春。

silkworm · Post by **silkworm** » 2005-12-12 15:44

估计是"旦那"的意思?

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 16:08

１？好像薛涛么。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 16:14

那段儿介绍忒的fishy, 什么叫“甚至”委身于他，什么叫“而旦那也会提供金钱等实质援助，照料艺妓的生活所需”？如果金钱援助和委身于他都是爱人关系的必要条件，不就是长三堂子和恩客的关系么？即使是“唯一一个的爱人”，也跟一般女性的爱人关系有本质区别啊。

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 16:29

时代背景所限，这个估计就是千金难买的真正的纯粹的无价的靠雄厚经济基础支撑的爱情了吧

karen · Post by **karen** » 2005-12-12 16:38

There is something about the Japanese, they just know how to package and sell their culture. Their samurais are no different from swordsmen in other countries, but somehow, they are romanticized and mystified to epic proportion that all white boys who think they have any depth would quote Kurosawa.
Again with their geishas, they are packaged with this 卖艺不卖身 crap and are billed as artists who, uhh... hmm... just occasionally have sex for money. All the sudden it's all kosher, a few books and a movie later, Vogue is doing an article, and Fresh is pushing out a makeup series that would make you look like a Geisha. Yeah, pay a hundred bucks and we will make you look like a prostitute.
Got to give it to the Japanese, they really know how to package bullshit and sell it for gold.

God, what's wrong with me? I am like a red state churchgoer today.

silkworm · Post by **silkworm** » 2005-12-12 16:53

日本人会包装，肯定的肯定的-------瞧他们卖的日本果子，里三层外三层，漂亮得要死，打开也不过就是块儿栗羊羹。馋没馋死你，急死你。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 16:58

日本果子很好吃。栗子饼也很好吃。豆沙团子也很好吃。垂涎的说。
我肯定是饿了。

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2005-12-12 17:00

太甜太甜，我拧着眉毛说。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 17:05

我越来越馋甜东西，吃个冰淇淋都得triple chocolate.

silkworm · Post by **silkworm** » 2005-12-12 17:09

不爱吃日本果子，很甜又太寡---我要香香的，西式的有奶油味儿的，中式的有猪油味儿的。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2005-12-12 17:15

你说的我更馋了。四十几街有家胡子老爹点心店，是日本妞开的西点店，做的奶油泡芙真好吃，大家都要提前拿号排队，二十分钟一批泡芙烤好，美貌的日本妞在那里一个一个挤奶油，垂涎的闻这香味等啊等，yummy ....