big girls don't cry

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Knowing
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big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-26 15:16

我这个周末在听《big girls don't cry》,关于08年大选里女性主义,性别政治,希拉里的历史和竞选阵营的策略,媒体对HRC 的偏执,米雪奥巴马和伊丽莎白爱德华兹的角色跟92年希拉里角色的异同之处,种族歧视和性别歧视的争论,女性解放为什么被定义为白人中产阶级妇女的运动而其它女性的参与似乎被抹去,萨拉佩林这个女性主义者的最坏恶梦为什么能得到那么多保守右派妇女的共鸣而前来占据女性主义的大旗。

听到目前为止我还挺喜欢,虽然她对帅哥挺有微词。不但内容丰富。这是一本女性主义视角的书,作者大概三十多岁,好多想法我挺有共鸣的。比如希拉里当第一夫人的时候她如何对他们充满希望,然后看到她当参议员后越来越没棱角感到被出卖跟理想疏远,所以一开始HRC 竞选的时候她都不愿意投她的票。但是在竞选中媒体大量暴露的性别歧视使她愤怒,又重新建立了跟HRC 的联系感,等到初选结束时她已经是非常伤心了。


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129938556

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Girls-Dont-Cr ... 1439150281
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CAVA
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by CAVA » 2010-09-27 2:15

HRC的媒体绯闻对象David Miliband没选上工党领袖,输给了弟弟Ed Miliband。这两天新闻上全是这个。

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-27 2:27

我看见了,这对兄弟花还挺养眼,长的很‘称头’,比正副首相那对面呼呼强。 :mrgreen: david 不是一直呼声很高嘛?怎么最后输给弟弟了?bbc 的新闻说:还好他们的妈不再现场。 :mrgreen:
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CAVA
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by CAVA » 2010-09-27 2:38

David长得更好些,Ed有点点包子脸。

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-27 2:42

也许是baby fat, 长开就好了。 :mrgreen:
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幻儿
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by 幻儿 » 2010-09-27 11:06

前两天我睡觉前听到新鲜空气播的书评,最后一句说希拉里就是the girl nobody invited to dance -- 我伤心得好久不能入睡 :verysad:

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-27 17:40

Don't be sad. Who cares about being asked to dance. It is all about setting the right goal. I am sure plenty of prom queens would never even dare to dream of having what HRC has.
And she won respect again from lots of progressive women, who should have been her base but were alienated over the years, they can see her as one of them again.
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 1:06

先说一下,我不太关心政治。。。。
只是覺得拿HRC和Prom Queen比較不合适。即使在同一个平台上,比如political woman, 有的人完全靠个人实力,有的靠能力+微妙的男女平衡,和同类人比,HRC 还是那个the girl nobody invited to dance 。

年轻时候的革命者,三十年后成了传统的捍卫者。
同样是女性主义,每个人走的不一样远。好比有人觉得女人应该受教育,有选举权,blah blah,可是要当总统。。。他们就犹豫起来了。说到底就是五十步笑百步。

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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-28 3:04

HRC is the most accomplished female American politian by any standards, so if we are talking about her female peers, I am sure she has no regret.
好比有人觉得女人应该受教育,有选举权,blah blah,可是要当总统。。。他们就犹豫起来了
这么赤裸裸的偏见明面上是不太多见的,一般都是比较subtle 的,伪装成针对HRC本人的反对。big girls don't cry 前半本讲的主要就是来自左翼的sexism, 特别令人质疑"为什么这些一直progressive 的人会这样说",尤其是认为gender 已经基本平等了的新一代,很郁闷困惑,以为自己是疯了呢。
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幻儿
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by 幻儿 » 2010-09-28 6:49

Sarah Palin那样的prom queen和HRC根本不是在一个层次上竞争,不足道。职场里大女人面对的对手也并不是选美皇后们,而是奥巴马们。
我难过的正是这个:似乎当今美国社会里,被大众公认的才智超群能力卓越成熟优雅的女性,还是敌不过能力未知经验欠奉但高大英俊具有人格魅力的男性。女人始终是吃亏的:不是很傻很天真的选美皇后,就是令人尊敬却不令人喜欢的女强人。男人可以既是异性的性幻想对象又是运筹帷幄的领袖人物,女人还不可以,虽然比过去已经进步多了。

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-28 7:22

不是到处都是奥巴马的。我虚弱的说。碰上一个大众情人的政敌只好算运气不好。要是她跟麦肯竞选,两人都没什么魅力也就无所谓了。
新一代女性已经(至少小范围内的)把 gender equality take for granted, 然后非常粗鲁的被惊醒了。
我已经听到下半部了,基本是在分析为什么sarah palin 招女性主义者的恨。她比HRC晚一代,享尽了女性解放的好处,占了便宜还卖乖。
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Jun
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Jun » 2010-09-28 7:46

You guys have forgotten how much HRC was hated by conservatives because how vehemently Bill Clinton was hated. I lived through the 90s. It was pretty ugly back then.
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 11:20

不是说嘛,六七十年代那些妇女解放运动的人,后来还是乖乖回家结婚生娃了。不是说结婚生娃是政治错误,问题在于,那些号称解放的,最终还是从男性(社会主流)的视角衡量自身的价值,她们争取的不过是把枷锁放的松一些罢了。那些所谓的激进者,并不是真正的推翻男权,她们从心理上还是依赖男性的, 是谈判者而不是革命者。

男性不需要女性定义他的价值,只要有事业就够了。相反,对HRC的评论,总是和Cliton牵扯在一起。一个想用事业define自己的女性,需要强大的内心,足够的自信和自知。

所以如果说HRC是拉拉,我不会觉得奇怪,这不是生理上的,这是心理上女权主义的结果。
Last edited by oliver on 2010-09-28 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 11:27

对大多数女人来讲,‘家’需要一个男人lead,那么‘国’当然也需要男人lead了。

那本书有没有分析都是哪些人在支持HRC呢?
===================
HRC和那个著名的LGBT平权组织Human Right Compaign是一样的首字母缩写 :)

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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Jun » 2010-09-28 12:50

oliver wrote:不是说嘛,六七十年代那些妇女解放运动的人,后来还是乖乖回家结婚生娃了。
Is this true?
不是说结婚生娃是政治错误,问题在于,那些号称解放的,最终还是从男性(社会主流)的视角衡量自身的价值,她们争取的不过是把枷锁放的松一些罢了。那些所谓的激进者,并不是真正的推翻男权,她们从心理上还是依赖男性的, 是谈判者而不是革命者。
Are these facts? Based on facts?
男性不需要女性定义他的价值,只要有事业就够了。
Really?
所以如果说HRC是拉拉,我不会觉得奇怪,这不是生理上的,这是心理上女权主义的结果。
What? :uhh:

Sorry, but I don't understand any of the sentences.
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Jun
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Jun » 2010-09-28 12:53

oliver wrote:大多数女人来讲,‘家’需要一个男人lead,那么‘国’当然也需要男人lead了。
大多数 = Most American women? Women in the world? Chinese women? Based on survey data?

Are most families (in the US, in the world) "led" by a man? Are there data to prove this claim?
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 13:07

No, I don't have any data to support myself. I won't and won't be able to find any, either.

I just say what I feel. More than glad to be enlightened :party002:

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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Jun » 2010-09-28 13:09

oliver wrote:No, I don't have any data to support myself. I won't and won't be able to find any, either.

I just say what I feel. More than glad to be enlightened :party002:
I don't have many data either, and I'm not saying you're wrong or right. I just feel like I'm living in a totally different world. And maybe I do live in a very different environment. So pardon me if my impression of women's condition is very different from your impression.

I have seen census data showing that, in 200X, over half of adult U.S. women are neither married nor living with a long-term male partner. Something like 1/3 U.S. women earn more $$$ than their husbands.

I have not seen any data on how many feminists in the 1960s "went home" and became housewives (as compared with those who were not feminists). Maybe some did, maybe some didn't. I don't know whether such facts are well known to anyone.

Some Mad Men fans have pointed out that lesbians were shunned from the feminists movement in the 60s and 70s. The feminists in the movement were very worried about being further stigmatized by the mainstream if they let lesbians in. The gay rights movement came much, much later. In short, lesbians had little if anything at all to do with the feminist movement of the 1960s, and the feminist movement was certainly NOT to get rid of the need for men.
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Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-28 13:15

oliver 我觉得你的每一句话都完全不靠谱,如果有证据让我们看看enlight 一下,没有证据全凭感觉那么我也懒得挨句跟你的缥缈感觉较劲。

精神上谁lead我没数据,经济上有。Shiver Report: :a woman's nation (2009)现在劳工阶层一半是女性 ((49.9 % July 2009)。百分之四十的母亲(单亲母亲和双亲家庭),要不没有男性带来收入,要不女性比男性挣的多。其中三分之二的女性是主要收入来源之一,带来家庭总收入四分之一以上。有六岁以下儿童的家庭中,三分之二的母亲在工作。

夫妻两人组成的家庭里,(合法结婚,妻子超过18岁,无论有没有孩子),38%的妻子挣的比丈夫多。


http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... ve_summary
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 14:25

Yeah, I'm SO convinced by the numbers.
THEN, WHY? What the author wrote this book for?

大多数也许太不准确,就算是多于一半吧。前提是在美国。
六十年代性解放和女权主义运动者,回归保守主义,回家生孩子,这个不是我臆想的。
我没有说女权主义是要get rid of men, 也没有觉得这样才正确,我强调的是从不同于男权主义的视角衡量女性的社会价值。兼容的,而不是排他的。

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 14:26

Sorry, 我想探讨的就是精神上的。

我没有否认三四十年来女性地位的提高。但是经济独立不代表精神独立。Glass ceiling也同样存在在女性自己的心里。

For more than half of the female Ph.Ds I know, they would prefer to have a stable family life than a career success, if one has to be compromised.

In a high-tech company with more than 80,000 employees, when talk about a female general VP, people may mention her husband in a way that he is a poor guy under the big shadow of his wife. However, an unmarried male would be treated totally different. The worst thing they would say is like, this guy works too hard to get himself a wife.

I'm in a state where same-sex Domestic Partner is legal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Self-control is needed when reading my non-statistical non-sense :twisted:
Knowing wrote: 精神上谁lead我没数据,
Last edited by oliver on 2010-09-28 15:02, edited 2 times in total.

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 14:31

男政客娶了有钱的太太,靠妻子家里的经济实力和社会关系往上爬,是很正常的。就算遭人非议,也会被其余人认为是酸葡萄心理。
可是为什么HRC要被人诟病是靠Cliton捞取政治资本,而她自己的实力被一再质疑。

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-28 15:08

If you want to find out why the author wrote the book, why don't you go read it? It is a interesting book and quite worth reading.
Excuse me for not responding to the rest of your non-statistical non-sense. Not worth my time.
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 15:40

Thanks for suggestion, I read the post this morning. I bought the book from kindle one hour ago. What else can I do now?

Thanks for ignoring. And thanks for the freedom to express :)

One thing I think HRC lacks is that she is more in a 'Fighting' mode, but don't know how to 'please' her voters. She is a manly girl, and Obama is, in some sense, more like a girly man. We need pioneer people like Hillary, and in future we will see more diversities.

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 17:28

Knowing,我觉得你比较optimistic。女性的工作还是以supporting为主,真正高收入高技术行业里,男性仍然dominant。曾经和我们公司一个HR聊过,她说公司里同样的position或者background的两个人,女性的平均工资比男性低。
38%的妻子挣的比丈夫多。

我好奇的是,这38%的家庭中,只有妻子工作的,也就是丈夫不工作的有多少?!
不过至少我知道
有六岁以下儿童的家庭中
, 三分之一的妻子不工作。

对我来说,事实是,在中低收入家庭中,双方都得工作。而在体力优势不再那么重要的今天,劳工阶层中妻子很有可能挣的比丈夫多。我承认,科技的进步,使得生儿育女的工作变得简单很多。平等教育,也让女性有更多就业机会。有钱才是硬道理,这是女性主义在全社会范畴内得以发展的依据。

不过就HRC的问题,我们应该更多focus在精英女性主义,而不是草根女性主义上吧 :)

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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 20:10

我去读了一下那个关于51%的女性Living without spouse的文章 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/us/16 ... gewanted=1

51%初看起来是很惊人,但当看到说1950年代这样的女性有35%,就没有那么shock了。有几点:

1)妇女的平均寿命比较长
widowed占总数的9%,假定这项差异在50年中没有变化,似乎对35%到51%的增长没有什么影响。但数据同时表明47%的男性也没有伴侣 (4%的差异)!这时候让我们再回头想想平均寿命的差异, btw, Widowed的男性只有2%。
2)离婚率上升
51%中包括11%的divorced, 我相信50年前的离婚率要低很多。假设去掉11%的一半,那么就只剩下大约45-46%
3)女性结婚平均年龄推迟。
However this data was for women 15 and over, 十五岁 !!!
在美国,2000年的时候Age of first marriage 是25.1岁。如果这项统计从5岁算起,大概1950年的时候独立女性就赶超50%了。

文中还说“Between 1950 and 2000, the share of women 15-to-24 who were married plummeted to 16 percent, from 42 percent. Among 25-to-34-year-olds, the proportion dropped to 58 percent, from 82 percent. ”
Again,这些数字看起来很惊人,不过我很想知道的是再后面10年,也就是35-45岁的rate。

My point is, 平等是trend,but not reality yet. 不要被这些数字麻痹了
革命尚未成功,(女)同志们仍需努力。

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 20:29

BTW, I have been diving for a while, but never introduce myself.
I identify myself as a lesbian + feminist.
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by dropby » 2010-09-28 22:04

oliver wrote: My point is, 平等是trend,but not reality yet. 不要被这些数字麻痹了
革命尚未成功,(女)同志们仍需努力。
我想这一点这里大多数人都会同意吧。但是你前面的一些结论性又没有证据支持的断言,的确看起来非常地奇怪啊。Big girls don't cry这本书从小k的介绍看起来,好像也是要讨论我们这个社会还到处都存在的性别歧视(在目前的社会环境下,我自动翻译为对女性的歧视)。

我觉得我有点理解你的想法,就是自觉不自觉地,很多女性仍然会把自己定义为从属的,辅助的地位,尤其是有孩子以后,更多地属于家庭而不是社会。我怀了乐乐以后,差不多遇到一个人就会问我生了乐乐还打不打算上班。如果家庭需要父母一方在家呆着的话,好像大家都自然地觉得应该是妈妈呆在家里。

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 22:18

虚心接受批评。 我的语气可能是太武断了。

虽然大方向一致,但也许我对整体状况没有那么乐观吧。
就内容本身,我希望能看到更多的讨论,不要因为我混了这个帖子。
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-28 22:37

回复 Jun: 关于60's 女权主义者的回归

wiki词条Radical Feminism
Some feminists, most notably Alice Echols and Ellen Willis, hold that after about 1975 most of what continued to be called "radical feminism" represents a narrow subset of what was originally a more ideologically diverse movement. Willis saw this as an example of a "conservative retrenchment" that occurred when the "expansive prosperity and utopian optimism of the '60s succumbed to an era of economic limits and political backlash."
当然这里说的还是比较含糊,我再找找看。

女权主义和lesbian分道扬镳的原因,(据我不完全的记忆),是因为她们不愿意被称为“man-hater",为反驳女权并非女生男性化。虽然将lesbian认为是 man-hater 或者masculine woman也是一种错误的stereotype。

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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by IF NOT » 2010-09-29 1:32

讲到性别歧视,我经常有种奇怪的感觉,中国经济迅猛发展,但是性别平等方面似乎是在倒退,成为男性的附庸成了新时代的一种潮流。公司里的各种歧视大家似乎都见怪不怪,有次和一个男程序员说起这个话题,他激烈反对,说他们组全男性,巴不得有个女孩子,“问题女的根本不做这个,我们根本找不到female candidate”。刚刚几句话之前他还在说,如果看到一个女程序员,他的第一反应就是她水平不行。我心说你们组都这么想,难怪找不到女性,有能力的女人谁愿意在这么歧视的环境里工作呢。

育龄女性找不到工作几乎是common sense,前一段还看到文学视界有人说应聘时不得不捏造了一个儿子。一个我熟悉的德国公司公开说招聘男性优先,有孩子的女性其次,原则上不考虑无孩的女性。另一个知名美企,某研发职位招聘时有2个female candidates最好,2选1时男hiring manager考虑的居然是:这个工作能力强,那个更漂亮可爱,怎么办呢?

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 2:12

狸狸也刚跟我说起过国内育龄(未育)妇女找工作困难的事, 包括外企。我很惊骇。这里问这个不合法,问婚姻状况都是不合法的。
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IF NOT
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by IF NOT » 2010-09-29 3:12

Knowing wrote:狸狸也刚跟我说起过国内育龄(未育)妇女找工作困难的事, 包括外企。我很惊骇。这里问这个不合法,问婚姻状况都是不合法的。
除了比较大的multi-national (Fortune 100) 还在勉强维持着表面的平等(旁敲侧击的打听),其他外企相当公开,我说的那家德国公司的opening就是个hr manager,完全的知法犯法,我还愤愤的想过可不可以告到他们全球的headquarters。也许应该庆幸中国还有独生子女政策,已育就洗脱了嫌疑,否则岂不是所有育龄女性都找不到工作了。文学视界的那个帖子很多做manager的女士跳出来justify discrimination,讲手下生孩子了有多耽误工作,“错杀三千”有多必要。好几个人好像自己都生过了,觉得自己给公司添了麻烦,被歧视很应该 :worthy: 我估计她们要在美国大概就是佩林的铁杆了。

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 3:17

还好我已经不看文学视界了,不然白白添堵 :verysad:
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IF NOT
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by IF NOT » 2010-09-29 3:42

我做这行,天天日日的看着,还得奉这帮客户为上帝,攒了不知多少心理垃圾 :verysad:

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 3:54

为了金钱我们要咬紧牙关! :f22: :f22:
为什么不能撒谎说"我不能生"?反正他们也不能查体检报告。
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IF NOT
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by IF NOT » 2010-09-29 8:59

第一
Knowing wrote:为了金钱我们要咬紧牙关! :f22: :f22:
为什么不能撒谎说"我不能生"?反正他们也不能查体检报告。
人家根本不信!当然如果你优秀得举世无双,这个位置又无比critical,他们也就咬咬牙冒这个险了 :action077:

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 9:16

:shock: :shock: 啊!装成过了生育年龄行么?假装已经生过了行么?
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IF NOT
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by IF NOT » 2010-09-29 9:30

所以就有人假装有儿子呀。然后进了公司就不知道该怎么面对同事的“关心”了

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 9:32

说离婚被万恶的前夫带走去外地了,然后红一下眼圈。 :mrgreen:
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silkworm
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by silkworm » 2010-09-29 10:09

Knowing wrote::shock: :shock: 啊!装成过了生育年龄行么?假装已经生过了行么?
You never know.
我一个月后刚回来被系里秘书拉着补课,一气儿看了四个新生儿的照片。
第一个是某男研究生的孩子,纯属正常。
第二个是某中年教授的孩子,我事先听到过八卦,不诧异,知道他跟原配两个孩子都不小了但还是离了婚,跟闹了好几年恋爱的女学生结婚,并火速再次当爹,不过秘书就被他周五通知下周起paternal leave给弄了个措手不及。
第三和第四个是一对双胞胎,我看了lastname都好半天没意识到是谁家孩子。终于确定是跟我老板有紧密合作的某中年C教授的孩子了,我本能地说:可是,我完全没发现他夫人怀孕啊?那夫人M非常瘦小,怎么可能不显形。秘书笑:因为她没有怀孕。原来是他们找了代母,俩人都是香港裔,代母种族不详,但是在印度生的。此刻教授夫妇已飞去印度接孩子了。比我反应还强烈的还大有人在,据说另一教授看到照片,大惊失色地说:可是我明明昨天下午还看到M!

CAVA
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by CAVA » 2010-09-29 10:24

北京方一月,系里已光年 :mrgreen:

tiffany
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by tiffany » 2010-09-29 10:32

Drama ah!
乡音无改鬓毛衰

Knowing
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by Knowing » 2010-09-29 11:22

那样很贵!
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tiffany
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by tiffany » 2010-09-29 11:30

可是他们喜欢 :mrgreen:
乡音无改鬓毛衰

笑嘻嘻
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2010-09-29 11:42

我觉得国内性别歧视一直有,只是从前没比较就习惯了。我记得自从国家不管分配起,单位招聘找上门来的学生很多都直接挂牌写:只要男生。当时的说法是找了女生单独出差不方便还得再加一个人陪着一起出差。
云浆未饮结成冰

笑嘻嘻
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2010-09-29 11:44

啊,对了蚕博回来啦。 :mrgreen:
云浆未饮结成冰

oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-29 11:55

中国人重视数理化,高学历尤其是理工科女生的比例要比在美国这边多。亚洲文化重男轻女也很严重,虽然我们经过了妇女能顶半边天的年代,可是从小对待男女还是不一样的。男生成绩差没关系有后劲,女生成绩好那也是死读书。别说外企,就是学校里老板招研究生,女生都会吃亏。国内就业竞争激烈,女生明显处于劣势。

美国这边明显的歧视少很多,是因为我们处在一个相对不饱和状态吗?比如我们公司15%的technical female名额总是有空缺。一方面可能candidates就少,另一方面女生流动性大。公司年度妇女大会,一个议题是女性的career development,第二个大家最关心的就是如何balance life and work。

不可否认,美国这边反歧视的内容年年code of conduct里面都要提,不管隐形如何,表面至少做的还行。

可是中国的倒退,是从妇女半边天年代的倒退,还是一个更加彻底的倒退呢?
而美国,情况是engineering school需要encourage female students to join this field。

美国的开明和中国的保守究竟谁的绝对值更大?

笑嘻嘻
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2010-09-29 12:08

都不咋地。
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oliver
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Re: big girls don't cry

Post by oliver » 2010-09-29 12:18

20 Facts on Women Workers
1999年的数据,10年后的今天应该差的不是那么太多。

结合1,18, 单亲母亲占了working women的1/5
第20条,3.5 million (27 percent) of all families maintained by women were below the poverty level in 1998.

well,38%的妇女挣得比丈夫多。。。没错,不过也没有我们想的那么美好罢了。

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